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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Birmingham, but the thing he gets most right is that while everyone is worrying about hurting poor Sonia's feelings all morning, apparently, breakfast TV hosts have been insisting that she's not a racist and that she's just a nice person bravely sharing her opinion (*gag*) something few people seem to realise is that when the nice lady on TV says "all Muslims should be banned from coming here", she's saying to every single Muslim in Australia "your kind isn't welcome here any more". It goes to show that commercial breakfast TV is the kind of place that is more comfortable with an extremist than someone who would rudely call her out on it.
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | As a side note, Trump never said to ban Muslim immigration forever, he said they should stop it (ban it) until they work out a reliable screening mechanism. |
You must be the only person in the world (well, perhaps apart from Jezza, judging by his response  ) who is impressed by that distinction. An indefinite ban, and particularly one couched in such vague terminology "until we can work out what's going on"! is a ban, is a ban. What exactly needs to change in screening processes in order for Trump to change his mind? He doesn't say because he hasn't thought of it. That's the benefit of an 'indefinite' ban you can always come back to it 'later' (i.e. 'never').
If you agree with such a ban ('temporary' or otherwise), that is a xenophobic view. That's not a personal insult, it's just what xenophobia (literally, 'fear of the other') is. Let's not beat around the bush here: any policy that profiles and excludes 1/6th of the world's population because of the actions of a few is discriminatory and solely motivated by fear of difference (or else the desire to capitalise on that fear for political gain). It may not fit the dictionary definition of racism, but it is as bad as racism in every single respect.
People who want to ban Muslims tend to go on a lot about preserving Western values. It's a shame that they're undermining what is perhaps the original Western value, which is freedom of religion. |
Just a few hey?
Jihad Report
June, 2016
Attacks 238
Killed 2055
Injured 2006
Suicide Blasts 43
Countries 33
Since the September 11 attack, Islamic terrorists have carried out more than 28,800 attacks, in almost every corner of the globe.
Imagine when they have a stranglehold on communities.
ICM (2014): 16% of all French Muslims support ISIS, including 27% of those aged 18-24.
http://www.newsweek.com/16-french-citizens-support-isis-poll-finds-266795
ICM (Mirror) Poll 2015: 1.5 Million British Muslims support the Islamic State, about half the total population.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/muslim-leader-isis-supporting-brits-disenfranchised-6018357
ICM (2016): 2 in 3 Muslims in Britain would not report terror plot to police.
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/uk/article4730825.ece
The Sun (2015: Following Nov. 2015 attacks in Paris, 1 in 4 young Muslims in Britain (and 1 in 5 overall) said they sympathize with those who fight for ISIS.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/politics/6758207/1-in-5-British-Muslims-have-sympathy-for-jihadis-in-poll.html
Channel Four (2006): 31% of younger British Muslims say 7/7 bombings were justified compared to 14% of those over 45.
http://www.policyexchange.org.uk/images/publications/living%20apart%20together%20-%20jan%2007.pdf
People-Press: 31% of Turks support suicide attacks against Westerners in Iraq.
http://people-press.org/report/206/a-year-after-iraq-war
Populus Poll (2006): 12% of young Muslims in Britain (and 12% overall) believe that suicide attacks against civilians in Britain can be justified. 1 in 4 support suicide attacks against British troops.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist
Populus Poll (2006): 16% of British Muslims believe suicide attacks against Israelis are justified.
37% believe Jews in Britain are a "legitimate target".
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2005/07/more-survey-research-from-a-british-islamist
Pew Research (2013): Only 57% of Muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda. Only 51% disapprove of the Taliban. 13% support both groups and 1 in 4 refuse to say.
http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/10/muslim-publics-share-concerns-about-extremist-groups/
BBC Radio (2015): 45% of British Muslims agree that clerics preaching violence against the West represent "mainstream Islam".
http://www.comres.co.uk/polls/bbc-radio-4-today-muslim-poll/
The Polling Company CSP Poll (2015): 25% of Muslim-Americans say that violence against Americans in the United States is justified as part of the "global Jihad (64% disagree).
http://www.centerforsecuritypolicy.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/150612-CSP-Polling-Company-Nationwide-Online-Survey-of-Muslims-Topline-Poll-Data.pdf
Informal poll of Saudis in August 2014 shows 92% agree that Islamic State (ISIS) "conforms to the values of Islam and Islamic law."
http://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2014/08/24/92-of-saudis-believes-that-isis-conforms-to-the-values-of-islam-and-islamic-law-survey/
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| 2055 Injured 2006 Suicide Blasts 43 Countries 33 the September 11 attack Islamic terrorists carried out more than 28800 attacks in every corner of the globe was killed? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Skids wrote: | Various polls about passive support for terrorism in Muslim communities
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We've had this discussion before, but I'll say it again: there's a huge difference between passive 'support' and active violence. What percentage of Australians believe that child sex offenders should be tortured and executed? What percentage voted for One Nation or some other hate group?
I'm sure PTID won't mind if I quote him here:
| pietillidie wrote: | Public focus and attention is extraordinarily limited; possibly as close to zero-sum as you can get, hence textbook PR.
And 20% of <insert people group> believe <insert autocratic violation of some group's rights here>, and always have. That could result in all kinds of fun in most countries on earth, none less than the UK and US, and doesn't tell us much at all. Just for your entertainment, type "20% americans believe" into Google!
The point being the translation of absurd beliefs into reality is complex in big populations; a bit like the way some people with very racist beliefs in theory can be very friendly to minority ethnic groups in reality. There is very often a dissonance going on which plays out in different ways depending on the context, such as whether objective thought (e.g., an academic exam), group identity or individual identity is being primed at the time.
Terrorism is already being given the resources and attention needed and no one opposes sufficient funding for it. The rest of the hysteria and silly mythology only gives rise to resource misallocation such as Afghanistan and Iraq.
Society just isn't getting worse on any measures which warrant this new obsession; it's entirely disproportionate. Meanwhile, the risks of terrorism and people movements continue to be driven and funded *above all* by a politics of chaos elsewhere built on completely bastardised economies and longstanding religious wars we have had a major hand in perpetuating for many long decades now. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | As a side note, Trump never said to ban Muslim immigration forever, he said they should stop it (ban it) until they work out a reliable screening mechanism. |
You must be the only person in the world (well, perhaps apart from Jezza, judging by his response ) who is impressed by that distinction. An indefinite ban, and particularly one couched in such vague terminology "until we can work out what's going on"! is a ban, is a ban. What exactly needs to change in screening processes in order for Trump to change his mind? He doesn't say because he hasn't thought of it. That's the benefit of an 'indefinite' ban you can always come back to it 'later' (i.e. 'never').
If you agree with such a ban ('temporary' or otherwise), that is a xenophobic view. That's not a personal insult, it's just what xenophobia (literally, 'fear of the other') is. Let's not beat around the bush here: any policy that profiles and excludes 1/6th of the world's population because of the actions of a few is discriminatory and solely motivated by fear of difference (or else the desire to capitalise on that fear for political gain). It may not fit the dictionary definition of racism, but it is as bad as racism in every single respect.
People who want to ban Muslims tend to go on a lot about preserving Western values. It's a shame that they're undermining what is perhaps the original Western value, which is freedom of religion. |
A couple of points.
1, I don't agree that it's a xenophobic view and as I already said, it's not racism and I'd much prefer to discuss an issue without having those two inflammatory terms thrown into the argument.
2. If you paid attention to Trump you'd know his background as a negotiator which includes starting of with a high bid and working backward. It's bloody hard to work up if you start low. Both the ban on Muslims and the building of a wall fall into this category.
3. You're also judging trump as a typical politician, which he is far from.
Now, to go someway toward justifying his opening bid, lets start from the premise that it seems as though whatever screening process they have currently in place either doesn't work or doesn't work as well as it should. So, since the solution to a problem is never to keep doing what you're doing and wonder why you don't get a different result, something different needs to be done.
So the starting point is, lets ban Muslim immigration until we figure a solution out. Yes, that's an indeterminate time frame but just because you equate that with equally forever doesn't mean that's the intent or even the end result.
First stage of step back from the opening bid would be to say that banning ALL Muslim immigration is unfair, so lets start with excluding from the ban those countries or areas that don't have any history of trouble. Say indonesia for one.
Then lets look at what's an acceptable number of people to be killed by terrorists who get through the screening net, given that no screening process can be 100% effective. Given X % of the population each year dies from guns, or alcohol, or drugs, or cars, what's a reasonable figure to aim for?
Then you get the various government agencies involved and work out what they can reasonably do and go from there.
I call it risk management. Australia does it pretty well even though the shriekers bellyache on social media about it, but we're an Island and border control is easier for us than them.
As an aside, I like JB, I like his books and I follow him on twitter (he recently emailed me a private link to download his new ebook as the one he was spruiking was an Amazon only format) but that doesn't mean I agree with everything he says. I've had a couple of arguments on twitter with him and the Pied Piper 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | Skids wrote: | Various polls about passive support for terrorism in Muslim communities
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We've had this discussion before, but I'll say it again: there's a huge difference between passive 'support' and active violence. What percentage of Australians believe that child sex offenders should be tortured and executed? What percentage voted for One Nation or some other hate group?
I'm sure PTID won't mind if I quote him here:
| pietillidie wrote: | Public focus and attention is extraordinarily limited; possibly as close to zero-sum as you can get, hence textbook PR.
And 20% of <insert people group> believe <insert autocratic violation of some group's rights here>, and always have. That could result in all kinds of fun in most countries on earth, none less than the UK and US, and doesn't tell us much at all. Just for your entertainment, type "20% americans believe" into Google!
The point being the translation of absurd beliefs into reality is complex in big populations; a bit like the way some people with very racist beliefs in theory can be very friendly to minority ethnic groups in reality. There is very often a dissonance going on which plays out in different ways depending on the context, such as whether objective thought (e.g., an academic exam), group identity or individual identity is being primed at the time.
Terrorism is already being given the resources and attention needed and no one opposes sufficient funding for it. The rest of the hysteria and silly mythology only gives rise to resource misallocation such as Afghanistan and Iraq.
Society just isn't getting worse on any measures which warrant this new obsession; it's entirely disproportionate. Meanwhile, the risks of terrorism and people movements continue to be driven and funded *above all* by a politics of chaos elsewhere built on completely bastardised economies and longstanding religious wars we have had a major hand in perpetuating for many long decades now. |
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So Sonia Kruger is a mother who wants to ban PTID coming to Australia?
It's her opinion though & we're all entitled to our opinions. I'm sure she must have missed the clear thinking classes at school.
Having said that I thunk what Germany did was plain stupid, we need to take some refugees but we also need to have the infrastructure to support them which the Libs / Nats have severely cut. Of course to ban all muslims is sheer stupidity but we also need to have "controls" in place for all comers.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | . If you paid attention to Trump you'd know his background as a negotiator which includes starting of with a high bid and working backward. It's bloody hard to work up if you start low. Both the ban on Muslims and the building of a wall fall into this category. |
Even if Trump is playing that game and I think you give him far too much credit for strategic thinking I think he'll find out very quickly that politics is very different to a boardroom. Abbott went to the 2013 election with a whole host of 'ambit claims' (killing 18C, the budget surplus, zero cuts to essential services) and ended up facing a massive backlash and pretty much nothing from his agenda being passed.
Now, Trump may well think that a guaranteed four years tenure (provided he doesn't get impeached for something first) before having to face up to his massive failures as president isn't so bad. But, again, this all presumes that he has a strategy, something I'm more than a little sceptical about. I think he's in way out of his depth now, and if the worst eventuates and he gets elected, that will become very apparent very quickly.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I think you give him far too little credit for his ability to negotiate. He's tapped into a vein that has him the presidential nominee for the Republicans, destroying all the professional politicians put before him, and spent less than 10% of the other candidates doing it. The boy's not dumb, he's redesigned how election campaigns will be run.
Also, a call out.
| David wrote: | | I hope they get a move on and "outbreed" people of Kruger's intelligence. |
I'd call that a typical progressive put down of someone of a dissenting view. First base, insult their intelligence, second base throw around terms like racist, islamophobe and xenophobe. It's like a playbook or a script, totally predictable unfortunately.
I thought you were better than that.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| David wrote: | | I'm not necessarily a huge fan of Birmingham, but the thing he gets most right is that while everyone is worrying about hurting poor Sonia's feelings all morning, apparently, breakfast TV hosts have been insisting that she's not a racist and that she's just a nice person bravely sharing her opinion (*gag*) something few people seem to realise is that when the nice lady on TV says "all Muslims should be banned from coming here", she's saying to every single Muslim in Australia "your kind isn't welcome here any more". It goes to show that commercial breakfast TV is the kind of place that is more comfortable with an extremist than someone who would rudely call her out on it. |
She's entitled to her opinion and for what it's worth I don't agree with her premise of completely banning Muslim migration in this country. I do endorse a highly regulated immigration system rather than an open borders policy but that's another discussion all together.
She didn't say anything racist unless Islam and being a Muslim is now a race, so technically she wasn't racist when she made her comments so therefore the comments of her "not being a racist" are factually correct.
To be frank, I'm more disgusted that the far/regressive left have done everything in their power to verbally abuse her on social media and discredit her with name-calling rather than sensibly engaging in political discourse. The same thing happened last night outside Q&A studios with Pauline Hanson with a mob of far-left idiots trying to intimidate her.
I'd rather hear what she says than to silence her which inadvertently only helps her generate even further support.
This country isn't suffering from Islamophobia (which is in reality a way to silence critics of Islam/Islamism), but we're suffering from discourse phobia (the fear of debating difficult issues and hearing both sides of the argument and trying to reach and sensible and practical solution or ideas of that issue).
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
People like kruger are suffering from terroristiophbia, you're right about the intellectual progressives.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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The left has never wanted to hear dissenting views or have a discussion because their position has been logically debated and found wanting over and over again. After losing a debate, they wake up the next morning and have the exact same position they had the day before only now cognitive dissonance has kicked in; their ego engages and it becomes an abuse fest.
The likes of David who are happy to debate the issues are few and far between, far more likely you'll just cop a stream of buzzword abuse and if that doesn't silence you they'll start throwing fists. Vile ideology that attracts the worst self hating small people. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Jezza wrote: |
This country isn't suffering from Islamophobia (which is in reality a way to silence critics of Islam/Islamism), but we're suffering from discourse phobia (the fear of debating difficult issues and hearing both sides of the argument and trying to reach and sensible and practical solution or ideas of that issue). |
I'm not a huge fan of the term Islamophobia either, but how else do we describe the experiences of the Muslim father on Q&A last night who says he gets called a 'Muslim pig' on the streets on a regular basis?
It's not racism, because Islam isn't a race. It isn't Islamophobia, because that's just a made up term. It's not xenophobia, because that's just name-calling and a way to silence dissent. So what is it?
If I may exercise my own free speech for a second, please get your head out of the sand for a minute. Among the kind of people who vote for One Nation or the Australian Liberty Alliance or turn up to Reclaim Australia or Ban the Mosque rallies, there are a large number of people who will call a passer-by a 'Muslim pig', or spit on them, or try to rip a woman's headscarf off. And that's a reality that ordinary law-abiding Muslims have to live with now. And every time Hanson or some Breakfast TV host or whoever calls for Muslims to be banned from the country, those numbers only go up. So call it whatever you like; but unless you're willing to stand up against this kind of violence and intimidation, then you're part of the problem.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Jezza wrote: |
This country isn't suffering from Islamophobia (which is in reality a way to silence critics of Islam/Islamism), but we're suffering from discourse phobia (the fear of debating difficult issues and hearing both sides of the argument and trying to reach and sensible and practical solution or ideas of that issue). |
I'm not a huge fan of the term Islamophobia either, but how else do we describe the experiences of the Muslim father on Q&A last night who says he gets called a 'Muslim pig' on the streets on a regular basis?
It's not racism, because Islam isn't a race. It isn't Islamophobia, because that's just a made up term. It's not xenophobia, because that's just name-calling and a way to silence dissent. So what is it?
If I may exercise my own free speech for a second, please get your head out of the sand for a minute. Among the kind of people who vote for One Nation or the Australian Liberty Alliance or turn up to Reclaim Australia or Ban the Mosque rallies, there are a large number of people who will call a passer-by a 'Muslim pig', or spit on them, or try to rip a woman's headscarf off. And that's a reality that ordinary law-abiding Muslims have to live with now. And every time Hanson or some Breakfast TV host or whoever calls for Muslims to be banned from the country, those numbers only go up. So call it whatever you like; but unless you're willing to stand up against this kind of violence and intimidation, then you're part of the problem. |
Lets first look at what he means by a regular basis. 20 times a day? once a week? once a month?
Then lets look at where he lives and what the local experience is with the Muslim population.
There's any numbers of things that go into that pot, trying to manufacture a way to make his experience, as bad as it may be, reflective of general society is utter BS.
There may not be a lot of muslims where you live, but there's plenty of African muslims around Preston and Heidelberg. I go shopping around there a bit, see plenty of women in their batman outfits and I've never seen anything like that.
FFS go to the Thomastown Sunday market if you want to visit the UN and see what the lack of tension looks like
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | Jezza wrote: |
This country isn't suffering from Islamophobia (which is in reality a way to silence critics of Islam/Islamism), but we're suffering from discourse phobia (the fear of debating difficult issues and hearing both sides of the argument and trying to reach and sensible and practical solution or ideas of that issue). |
I'm not a huge fan of the term Islamophobia either, but how else do we describe the experiences of the Muslim father on Q&A last night who says he gets called a 'Muslim pig' on the streets on a regular basis?
It's not racism, because Islam isn't a race. It isn't Islamophobia, because that's just a made up term. It's not xenophobia, because that's just name-calling and a way to silence dissent. So what is it?
If I may exercise my own free speech for a second, please get your head out of the sand for a minute. Among the kind of people who vote for One Nation or the Australian Liberty Alliance or turn up to Reclaim Australia or Ban the Mosque rallies, there are a large number of people who will call a passer-by a 'Muslim pig', or spit on them, or try to rip a woman's headscarf off. And that's a reality that ordinary law-abiding Muslims have to live with now. And every time Hanson or some Breakfast TV host or whoever calls for Muslims to be banned from the country, those numbers only go up. So call it whatever you like; but unless you're willing to stand up against this kind of violence and intimidation, then you're part of the problem. |
Lets first look at what he means by a regular basis. 20 times a day? once a week? once a month?
Then lets look at where he lives and what the local experience is with the Muslim population.
There's any numbers of things that go into that pot, trying to manufacture a way to make his experience, as bad as it may be, reflective of general society is utter BS.
There may not be a lot of muslims where you live, but there's plenty of African muslims around Preston and Heidelberg. I go shopping around there a bit, see plenty of women in their batman outfits and I've never seen anything like that.
FFS go to the Thomastown Sunday market if you want to visit the UN and see what the lack of tension looks like |
Stui, I was watching Q & A last night. The bloke said he lives & works & helps out in Cronulla. He loves living there for about the the last 6 years or so.
However, he reports quite genuinely it seemed that since the advent of Pauline & her mob he then started copping the abuse which for him was not his experience before she decided to enter the fray.
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