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Post match. Pies down to Crows. All comments please.

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Piesnchess 



Joined: 09 Jun 2008


PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 12:51 pm
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themonk wrote:
doriswilgus wrote:
RudeBoy wrote:
Culprit wrote:
Lost the game in the first quarter and played catch up after that. The team had a crack and whilst I am annoyed we lost I am not disappointed. One point raised last night was that we have only 5 players that have played all year and that is very clear in our game play. Let's bounce back and knock off the Roos. Razz


Yeah, I agree. The only thing that worried me last night was that, without Fasolo, we don't have a single player on our list capable of grabbing a game by the scruff of the neck and turning it in our favour. We lack a Dangerfield, a Rioli or an Eddie Betts. Our side plugged away all night, but we seem to be lacking the X factor or spark that can win a game when it's hard and tight. Even our best player and captain Pendles, rarely imposes himself on a game to win it for us, rather he is an accumulator and a link player throughout the game. Swan used to win games for us, and sometimes Elliott would too, but who knows whether either of them will ever play for us again?


I was thinking the same exact thing after the game last night.I think we have the makings of a pretty decent side,but it's not all there yet.We have the cake,but there's no icing on it at the moment.

We lack players with the x factor,players who can turn the game with one brilliant goal.If you take Eddie Betts out of their team last night and put him in ours,then we probably win the game.We're just lacking that sort of brilliance in the team,and it's really hurting us at the moment.


Our x factor players are Elliot, Fasolo & Swan Sad


Take those three out of any side, and it hurts, and affects the end result of games. Surprised

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Raw Hammer 



Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Location: The Gutter

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:11 pm
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Unfortunately, and I sound like a broken record, but at the end of the 2014 season during the members' forum, I asked Buckley directly to his face in front of the audience about our lack of class up forward since the departures of Medhurst, Leon and Didak, a player that can turn or own a game through sheer brilliance, and he was adamant that role players like Blair and Goldsack are more than capable. That's when he lost me. He thinks hard work and pressure wins games...he doesn't care much for x-factor game-changers who can make something out of nothing. It is why we are so Beige. Sigh...
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simon tonna 



Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Location: carindale

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 3:52 pm
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you can see where bucks is coming from RAW. he believes in the product
that you produce should be what you live by. you shouldn't be relying on
miracles from impossible scenarios to get you over the line week in week out. just clean, cold hard facts from the basics of the game. however you
look at it its a work in progress that needs time and perseverance.
atm collingwood are there own worst enemies and we deserve to be
where we are and that is fact.

so when a player puts on the guernsey you would expect them to give
all they've got,[which they did last night] but we lacked more than just
effort or a front and centre crumbier or a banana kicked from out side fifty to lift us to victory. we need to as a team to polish up a heck of a lot
more before anyone player can do it for us.

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MightyMagpie 



Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 4:36 pm
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Raw Hammer wrote:
Unfortunately, and I sound like a broken record, but at the end of the 2014 season during the members' forum, I asked Buckley directly to his face in front of the audience about our lack of class up forward since the departures of Medhurst, Leon and Didak, a player that can turn or own a game through sheer brilliance, and he was adamant that role players like Blair and Goldsack are more than capable. That's when he lost me. He thinks hard work and pressure wins games...he doesn't care much for x-factor game-changers who can make something out of nothing. It is why we are so Beige. Sigh...


Beige comes in many shades and variations ... it worked for Richie Benaud.

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Raw Hammer 



Joined: 11 Sep 2008
Location: The Gutter

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 5:27 pm
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simon tonna wrote:
you can see where bucks is coming from RAW. he believes in the product
that you produce should be what you live by. you shouldn't be relying on
miracles from impossible scenarios to get you over the line week in week out. just clean, cold hard facts from the basics of the game. however you
look at it its a work in progress that needs time and perseverance.
atm collingwood are there own worst enemies and we deserve to be
where we are and that is fact.

so when a player puts on the guernsey you would expect them to give
all they've got,[which they did last night] but we lacked more than just
effort or a front and centre crumbier or a banana kicked from out side fifty to lift us to victory. we need to as a team to polish up a heck of a lot
more before anyone player can do it for us.


But x-factor can turn a game when the chips are down. X-factor can score the impossible goal to lift a team. X-factor can make other players around them better. X-factor can be the cream on top.

See Daicos in the 1990 GF. He had no right to kick our first goal of the day, the Bombers were all over us. Then BAMMO from the 5th row. Team believes. Game on! See Didak's two final qtr goals vs Bris during the 2003 QF, or his smother and freak right foot snap in the 2010 GF to snuff out St Kilda's mini run. The A-B-C's are all well and good, but X completes the puzzle.

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neil Sagittarius



Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Location: Queensland

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 7:29 pm
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Raw Hammer wrote:
Unfortunately, and I sound like a broken record, but at the end of the 2014 season during the members' forum, I asked Buckley directly to his face in front of the audience about our lack of class up forward since the departures of Medhurst, Leon and Didak, a player that can turn or own a game through sheer brilliance, and he was adamant that role players like Blair and Goldsack are more than capable. That's when he lost me. He thinks hard work and pressure wins games...he doesn't care much for x-factor game-changers who can make something out of nothing. It is why we are so Beige. Sigh...

What was he going to say "both are average players" or"we can only recruit so many good players each year" or "when someone better comes along they are gone"?
Elliot Broomhead and Fasolo have all been recruited as x factor players its injuries that have caused the problems.
Swan was going to play forward this year until injury

Remember Didak only played forward instead of the midfield because his goal kicking was more valuable than being a mid.

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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 8:52 pm
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King Monkey wrote:
Must've watched a different game regarding Darcy Moore than some people.

Greasy night, top rated opponent - marked what he could and brought the ball to ground when unable to hold the mark. Rarely caught behind his man.
Without dominating was pretty good.


Agree, if he'd clunked a few of those marks we'd be saying it was 1 of his better games.
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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:02 pm
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Culprit wrote:
Lost the game in the first quarter and played catch up after that. The team had a crack and whilst I am annoyed we lost I am not disappointed. One point raised last night was that we have only 5 players that have played all year and that is very clear in our game play. Let's bounce back and knock off the Roos. Razz


Yep this, 1 goal 6 points in the 1st quarter killed us.
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Black and White Reviews 



Joined: 08 Jun 2016


PostPosted: Sun Jul 17, 2016 9:33 pm
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check out my review of the game guys! will be interested to hear what you guys have to say!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6nDJJo_-FI

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bally12 



Joined: 29 Sep 2010


PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 12:20 am
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Cam wrote:
bally12 wrote:
The paradox in all this is that our coach was probably the best kick of the footy EVER. And yet all he keeps preaching is "hard work". Go figure.


And you know this how? Just from his pressers?

Largely yes, from his pressers where he explains what went wrong after a loss. He sees a player that didn't work hard enough, I see a player that can't kick.
I don't believe asking for a super-human effort every week is the right approach to have a successful season. It's asking too much from a playing group every week, and cannot be sustained. Hawthorn does it the best, where they bubble along at less than full-throttle and win games tactically and with superior skills rather than relying on absolute run-till-you-drop effort. Then in the real crunch games, they have heaps in reserve to play at that super-high intensity.
I also question that you can tell a group of professional athletes that they "didn't work hard enough". Would you say to a professional marathon runner after the race that "he didn't work hard enough"? 100% effort at that level is a given. And yet on a different day, with the same competition, that marathon runner would most likely get a different result. Would you then again say "he didn't work hard enough"? Maybe there are other reasons for the difference in performance, other than just having mindset and willingness to give your all on the day (which I'm sure all our players do). I think it's a bit of a coaching cop-out to give that as an excuse.

I admire and repect Bucks. His is the only sports book I cared enough to read. There is no doubt he's a very intelligent, caring person, with an unparalled desire to help our club succeed. The proof is in the pudding however. What I see on the park is players that have been in the system for 5 years and still having appalling kicking techniques. I've played enough and watched enough footy in my life to be able to make this assessment. I just can't explain how this could be happening in a Buckley-coached team.

What is even more interesting is that in excerpts from the book "Champions: Conversations with Great Players and Coaches of Australian Football", Bucks even demonstrates that he has always given thought to and analysed and understood his own kicking technique.
Quote here:
"Coaches often tried to change my kicking technique. They tried to get me to run straight at the target. Even when I had a set shot at goal, I would veer slightly to the right in my last couple of steps ó itís just my natural kicking style. I donít necessarily believe in a perfect technique, just basic fundamentals. You need to be comfortable with your own style and that only comes from practice. Early in my career, I often kicked the ball too hard and flat, but I came to realise thereís less margin for error in that type of kick, and itís harder to receive".

He also says this:
"I reckon 25 to 30 per cent of the game is talent; the rest is work ethic and maintaining competitiveness".

So what is going on? Has he taken the need to "delegate" skills-teaching to his other coaches too literally? Do these guys have any idea? Does he not believe in the capacity for a player to improve his kicking skills? Does he not think it's important enough?

By they way, the full excerpts that I mentioned above, are a great read, and provide an interesting insight into Bucks himself. To bypass the HS paywall, do this:
In Google search for "Why is Nathan Buckley such a driven person?". Click on the 1st search result.

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Museman 



Joined: 06 Jul 2009


PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 7:29 am
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[quote="bally12"][quote="Cam"]
bally12 wrote:

"Coaches often tried to change my kicking technique. They tried to get me to run straight at the target. Even when I had a set shot at goal, I would veer slightly to the right in my last couple of steps ó itís just my natural kicking style. I donít necessarily believe in a perfect technique, just basic fundamentals. You need to be comfortable with your own style and that only comes from practice. Early in my career, I often kicked the ball too hard and flat, but I came to realise thereís less margin for error in that type of kick, and itís harder to receive".



He is absolutely spot on here, and i do not understand why people don't get it, kicking is far more than mechanics, above all it's judgment, its a very "feel" thing, especially field kicking!
It is also very dependent on game style "pressure" on both the kicker and the receiver, and so options as well, you kick to a hot contest and your kick cannot miss by a foot, you kick to a teammate who has found space and a kick off by a foot is still an effective kick, there is not to much point in trying to change mechanical actions, the better idea is to refine what the player has always and always will have, that which he has grown up doing.
Kicking in the clutch is probably what we all are referring to when we think of great kickers and unfortunately this can rarely be taught, you have it or you do not, it is far more mental than mechanical, you thrive on pressure situations or they envelop you(Cloke is enveloped).

Choosing poor options puts your kicking under high pressure, the smart average kicker always look like e very good kick because they rarely choose the option that puts their kick in peril.
Hawthorn are not so much a great kicking side, but they are a very smart side who make good decisions and also implement a game plan that frees up players allowing for wriggle room in kicking error.
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BucksIsFutureCoach 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007


PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:28 am
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bally12 wrote:
Cam wrote:
bally12 wrote:
The paradox in all this is that our coach was probably the best kick of the footy EVER. And yet all he keeps preaching is "hard work". Go figure.


And you know this how? Just from his pressers?

Largely yes, from his pressers where he explains what went wrong after a loss. He sees a player that didn't work hard enough, I see a player that can't kick.
I don't believe asking for a super-human effort every week is the right approach to have a successful season. It's asking too much from a playing group every week, and cannot be sustained. Hawthorn does it the best, where they bubble along at less than full-throttle and win games tactically and with superior skills rather than relying on absolute run-till-you-drop effort. Then in the real crunch games, they have heaps in reserve to play at that super-high intensity.
I also question that you can tell a group of professional athletes that they "didn't work hard enough". Would you say to a professional marathon runner after the race that "he didn't work hard enough"? 100% effort at that level is a given. And yet on a different day, with the same competition, that marathon runner would most likely get a different result. Would you then again say "he didn't work hard enough"? Maybe there are other reasons for the difference in performance, other than just having mindset and willingness to give your all on the day (which I'm sure all our players do). I think it's a bit of a coaching cop-out to give that as an excuse.

I admire and repect Bucks. His is the only sports book I cared enough to read. There is no doubt he's a very intelligent, caring person, with an unparalled desire to help our club succeed. The proof is in the pudding however. What I see on the park is players that have been in the system for 5 years and still having appalling kicking techniques. I've played enough and watched enough footy in my life to be able to make this assessment. I just can't explain how this could be happening in a Buckley-coached team.

What is even more interesting is that in excerpts from the book "Champions: Conversations with Great Players and Coaches of Australian Football", Bucks even demonstrates that he has always given thought to and analysed and understood his own kicking technique.
Quote here:
"Coaches often tried to change my kicking technique. They tried to get me to run straight at the target. Even when I had a set shot at goal, I would veer slightly to the right in my last couple of steps ó itís just my natural kicking style. I donít necessarily believe in a perfect technique, just basic fundamentals. You need to be comfortable with your own style and that only comes from practice. Early in my career, I often kicked the ball too hard and flat, but I came to realise thereís less margin for error in that type of kick, and itís harder to receive".

He also says this:
"I reckon 25 to 30 per cent of the game is talent; the rest is work ethic and maintaining competitiveness".

So what is going on? Has he taken the need to "delegate" skills-teaching to his other coaches too literally? Do these guys have any idea? Does he not believe in the capacity for a player to improve his kicking skills? Does he not think it's important enough?

By they way, the full excerpts that I mentioned above, are a great read, and provide an interesting insight into Bucks himself. To bypass the HS paywall, do this:
In Google search for "Why is Nathan Buckley such a driven person?". Click on the 1st search result.

There's two points you make I need to refute. The first is your point about effort made during Buckley's press conference. Adelaide is one of the hardest working teams in the competition. That's why they are second on the ladder. If you want to beat them you have to work harder. Buckley is stating a fact. Would you prefer him to hide the truth from his players? You can't compare the marathon runner to a team sport like football. In one you only let yourself down. In the other you let all your teammates down.
Your second point about the side being appalling kicks is simply not true. Kicking technique is taught in junior footy. Players drafted into the AFL system are already good kicks. Otherwise they don't get drafted. AFL footballers practice their kicking at training. They might modify their kicking a bit to kick a bit more accurately. But if their basic kicking technique is flawed, it can't be corrected at AFL level. What you see watching AFL footy when kicks are muffed is the result of pressure applied by the opposition. What you forget is that players are running at a rate of knots for every minute on the ground and cover about 4-8 km a game and have to make instant decisions over a field covered with 36 players. As humans we highlight the mistakes made by players with their kicking, but if you replay the Adelaide game, you will find that often during the game, players hit their teammates on the chest with the ball delivery.
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Cam Capricorn

Nick's BB Member #166


Joined: 10 May 2002
Location: Springvale

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 8:52 am
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Pressers are like Parent-Teacher meetings. You only show a small glimpse of what teaching is actually going on behind the scenes. Earlier on in the season our gameplan appeared broken because players were not running hard enough both ways, to the correct spacing positions in regards to their opposition and were getting torched [like they did in the first Q against the Crows] because their space/man balance was too heavily weighed towards space and they weren't close enough to their man [eg Oxley] nor running off at the correct times [eg Frost].

The intercepting zone that all clubs use relies on you being close enough for a spoil but also being able to quickly assess when the ball is coming in where its going to land and getting there first. As familiarity with that, tweaks to it, stability of personnel, improved knowledge of teammates has happened we have been more able to use our skill on the contest as an excuse, rather than workrate. Adelaide out skilled us, whereas earlier in the season the Saints, Dees and Blues outworked us.

One thing that has really improved this season is our ball movement by hand. We look to have modelled that on the Geelong Kennett Curse years. We play exciting footy but yes, miss Jamie Elliott's creativity most of all. Crocker might be a solid option going forward but he's probably not Didak/Leon gamebreaking quality.

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September Zeros 



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 9:13 am
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neil wrote:
Raw Hammer wrote:
Unfortunately, and I sound like a broken record, but at the end of the 2014 season during the members' forum, I asked Buckley directly to his face in front of the audience about our lack of class up forward since the departures of Medhurst, Leon and Didak, a player that can turn or own a game through sheer brilliance, and he was adamant that role players like Blair and Goldsack are more than capable. That's when he lost me. He thinks hard work and pressure wins games...he doesn't care much for x-factor game-changers who can make something out of nothing. It is why we are so Beige. Sigh...

What was he going to say "both are average players" or"we can only recruit so many good players each year" or "when someone better comes along they are gone"?
Elliot Broomhead and Fasolo have all been recruited as x factor players its injuries that have caused the problems.
Swan was going to play forward this year until injury

Remember Didak only played forward instead of the midfield because his goal kicking was more valuable than being a mid.


This is it up forward.

Put Elliot, fas and swan at the feet of Darcy, white Cloke and cox and we look an entirely different and far more potent forward line with plenty of X factor. Perhaps just lacking some speed. Never mind about next year, That was how it was supposed to pan out this year. And it didn't due to injury.

But yet we continue to keep banging on about Blair and IMO miss the point completely. If Elliot and co were available to play he probably wouldn't get a game. How hard is that to work out?? But as it stands when you look at our list, he has experience and is durable and he is available. Something our side lacks enormously. So he's going to get a game.

Probably time to deal with that fact or seek counselling.

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3rd degree Aries



Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: John Wren's tote

PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 10:25 am
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Raw Hammer wrote:
Unfortunately, and I sound like a broken record, but at the end of the 2014 season during the members' forum, I asked Buckley directly to his face in front of the audience about our lack of class up forward since the departures of Medhurst, Leon and Didak, a player that can turn or own a game through sheer brilliance, and he was adamant that role players like Blair and Goldsack are more than capable. That's when he lost me. He thinks hard work and pressure wins games...he doesn't care much for x-factor game-changers who can make something out of nothing. It is why we are so Beige. Sigh...



a good point , i hate to say it but melbourne did well getting Gartlett for nothing , he does have that x factor and crumbing ability. The crows were smart nabbing Betts, he was difference saturday night.

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