 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
Actually, I've got a theory on this: I sound petulant to you because I'm disagreeing with both of you. And I sound like a child to you because you're both old enough to be my parents, and grumpy old farts to boot. 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
 |
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Grumpy old farts, yes
Old enough to be your parents, yes
Other than that, welcome to cognitive dissonance. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
|
| Post subject: | |
|
 I knew there was a reason I preferred kids of the fur variety
Reasonable but not successful attempt at distraction by the way 
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
On a more serious note, I totally get what you're saying, Morrigu. But there's a big difference between community consultation and taking a couple of vox pops in the media as an authority. You might call this the 'Noel Pearson effect' an influential member of a marginalised community says something and it's taken as gospel (particularly if it can be used for convenient political ends), when really it might just be a minority opinion.
But yes, of course the first port of call in dealing with these issues has to be the community itself. They must play a central role in devising solutions and putting them into place. That doesn't mean, though, that all the solutions that they propose must or even can be followed; if an Amish community with a youth drug problem suggests that the answer is more corporal punishment for children, that doesn't mean we should amend our child abuse laws accordingly. I'd need more than a poll of Somalian parents in Melbourne before agreeing to fundamentally change our country's citizenship laws. And I suspect most of you would ordinarily agree with me on that principle.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^
The truth is somewhere in the middle, no argument there, It's just not at either extreme.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
|
| Post subject: | |
|
correct David!
The communities must have a voice but the issues and the ramifications are of concern to society as a whole and as such society as a whole must be engaged and committed to actions to address issues but we need to listen to those with the lived experience - of this I am sure!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | I'm not sure what you've found in my posts to suggest that I'm taking a 'hysterical' or 'conformist' approach to this. I haven't called you or your posts 'racist' (whether they are xenophobic is for readers to decide). I am genuinely appalled by your proposal, but that is because it is founded upon the premise that immigrants and their Australian-born children are unwanted, barely-tolerated house guests as opposed to full members of society. It's precisely the sort of thing that might be (and likely has been, at some point) dreamed up by the BNP or Front National. it's an overall hostility towards immigration and distrust of foreigners. Frankly, I can see no other reason to entertain ideas about deporting people who were born here.
We have a choice here, and it's an important one: do we continue to embrace the immigration project and work to productively remedy specific problems as they arise? Or do we return to the fearful days of yesteryear in which foreigners were treated as inherently dangerous, and litter our borders and our institutions with "you are not welcome" signs? I am quite sure that your proposal would lead us further down the latter path. |
A few quick points here : you did not use the "R" word, but the bit about "fantasies about nasty foreigners" was a dog whistle the size of an umpire's blast. It is now normal, when immigration policy is discussed, to bring out charges of xenophobia or racism. In this case, as we are discussing serious violent felony by recent immigrants, it is not especially anti-immigration ; it is simply reserving the right to expel those who violate the gift we have given them by committing violence or treason against us. This is more or less what prisons are there to do - to expel the wrongdoer from society and we curb their ordinary rights in doing so. Full citizenship depends on lawful choices.
As for your assertion about the BNP and FN, I might point out that a programme of this nature is exactly how the German gastarbeiter system works. After a generation or two, if you prove to be of good character, there is a pathway to citizenship. Germany was not ruled by the FN or BNP the last time I looked - so again, I suggest there is an element of hysteria (or at least hyperbole) in your "appalled" (sic) reaction.
As for the privilege of citizenship, you are of course correct that the legitimacy of ascribed citizenship is an arbitrary and probably unjust accident of birth. Some are lucky enough to be born into well-managed countries, some into better families than others. That does not oblige those who inherited those birthrights to simply open the front door of the family home (aka nation) to anyone who wishes to move in. Possession is not only 9/10ths of the law, it is pretty much the basis of all law. The rights of possessors (of body and/or property) is what the law is there to protect.
Finally, I note your use of the term "the immigration project". Funny how words reveal purposes. Why are we undertaking such a project ? When was it declared, and on what scale ? Who voted for it ? I'd suggest there is no project, nor any basis for a project, merely a kind of subterranean blurring of the distinction between asylum and illegal immigration for various political ends by people who became detached from the communities they were elected to represent. It is a great, if probably irreversible, shame.
Some immigration is very healthy and a good thing, in my judgement ; but the amount and quality is a matter that should have been more explicitly part of the social contract between the people and their rulers. Sudanese gangs are but one manifestation of a far wider problem of the social disintegration and civil violence which has accelerated since the 1960s. Much of that disintegration has its roots in the breakdown of inter-communal trust arising from the loss of shared and jointly understood experience. While there are numerous causes of this, mass immigration is almost certainly a major factor.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sat Nov 19, 2016 11:54 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
|
|
|
Bruce Gonsalves
Joined: 05 Jul 2012
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Morrigu wrote: | | ^ then they should go back - win win! |
<snip we can disagree without needing to resort to name-calling.> |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| swoop42 wrote: | Let's face it some cultures are jut more prone to resorting to violence if challenged by society or authority.
If it isn't Sudanese, it's Lebanese or another.
Given the country of there origin it's hardly surprising. |
You mean given what a lot of them have experienced? I see both sides. Certainly the home invasions and gangs picking on kids in broad daylight is a worry, a big one. But all the ones I've dealt with personally have been just like everyone else, except many many of them are more grateful. I'll never forget working in footscar years ago and seeing all the war scars, including hacked off noses and ears. It's got to be hard to intergrate from that. But as for the misbehaving second generation ones, lock em up, just like I'd say about Aussie kids. Lack of parental discipline is far from a refugee thing! Did a little shopping yesterday at werribee plaza, and remembered why I mostly shop online! Man the bad manneredlittle $%$ers drove me nuts! And that was mostly preschool aged kids! Parents just let em run wild!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: |
Finally, I note your use of the term "the immigration project". Funny how words reveal purposes. Why are we undertaking such a project ? When was it declared, and on what scale ? Who voted for it ? I'd suggest there is no project, nor any basis for a project, merely a kind of subterranean blurring of the distinction between asylum and illegal immigration for various political ends by people who became detached from the communities they were elected to represent. It is a great, if probably irreversible, shame. |
I think it's fair to say that Australia commenced its immigration project loosely speaking, a program of opening itself up to immigrants from non-Anglo cultures as a means to increase overall prosperity and reap the benefits of diversity soon after World War 2 and expanded with the later removal of the White Australia Policy, but didn't become a full-fledged operation until Keating and Howard opened the floodgates. This is around the time that the concept of multiculturalism started to become central to Australian identity (a shift that has, of course, been met with no small resistance). By now, it's safe to say that this is who we are as a nation, for better or for worse, and it has been a direct result of government policy.
(By the way, what's with the 'sic' after 'appalled'? Are you saying I spelled it wrong, or used it incorrectly? Lol.)
I do not think I was out of line to point out that deportation (particularly calling for the broadening of deportation laws) is a key rhetorical device in the anti-immigrant far-right political sphere, and that such sentiments tend to emerge from and appeal to xenophobia. That's not to assign any such qualities to you; I'm simply pointing out that we're swimming in murky waters here.
Also, I stand by the point that 'we' have not given natural-born citizen children of immigrants anything. You can argue that their parents are recipients of generosity, but I don't think you're suggesting that they suffer for the sins of their offspring.
All I'm trying to say is, you're born here, you're one of us. You don't have to earn your place. I'm not sure what principle you're calling upon here to argue that full citizenship should not be a birthright for certain groups of people. On what grounds does one argue that they are not 'us' the possessors you speak of without recourse to a genetic, racialised conceptualisation of nationality?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
"Appalled" was just "sic"ed because, given that a similar policy has been pretty normal in Germany, the word seemed to signify the reflex moral hyperventilation that tends to surround any hard-nosed discussion of immigration. And yes, i know that some rather loathsome groups might like a "send em home" policy - but we are not talking about that. We are talking about repatriating those convicted of serious and violent crimes. It is not at all the same thing. Associating my view with the BNP and FN is rather like associating your desire for greater equality with the Khmer Rouge - the limits and conditions matter.
Finally, i dont think a "genetic, racialised view of nationality" is in question. while we were talking about Sudanese gangs in this thread, at a policy level it does not require discrimination. Whether you come to Australia from the Uk or Sudan, a period of probationary citizenship (in effect, indefinite leave to remain) through two generations would apply, and you retain your old citizenship. You want to stay and acquire full citizenship? Here's a hint - don't murder, or rob with violence, or encourage terrorism, or commit treason etc. I know it might be a little hard, pet, but if you have to be a law-breaker, stick to petty larceny and below. Some tough things would happen as such a policy played out - but probably less tough than having your skull broken by a thug with a baseball bat, or your daughter killed through gang violence.
More broadly, of course, there is the "project" of mass immigration, legal and illegal, designed by those who live on map 45 of the Melways, but mostly lived out - for now - by the citizens of Springvale and Footscray. Fortunately the long bipartisan consensus in favour of this is breaking down right across the western world as the people find their electoral voice.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Talking to a few Police friends (Yes I have them). The facts are police numbers are down and command have to prioritise. The City of Casey is down 67% on staff, I laughed at that figure but they are adamant this is the case with police are off with various types of leave. We have police from surrounding areas attending reported crimes in various locations. When you call 000 they organise the priority of your case. House burglary and the defendants are gone will go to the bottom of the pile. Aggravated burglary in progress gets first priority and in saying that, if there is a fatal accident the police are held up there. Many years ago under Kennet we got rid of civilians off the police payroll to save $$$. This gave the police a payrise under agreement with the police union but they had to do all admin work. We have police stuck at a computer typing reports out where they should be on the road. Get Civilians back in to do the admin work. They can work in Police stations to take up most of the inquiries like they used too. As most Government decisions to save money in the short term, always cost us more in the long term. Many officers on stress leave can be doing the paperwork as well. |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | "Appalled" was just "sic"ed because, given that a similar policy has been pretty normal in Germany, the word seemed to signify the reflex moral hyperventilation that tends to surround any hard-nosed discussion of immigration. And yes, i know that some rather loathsome groups might like a "send em home" policy - but we are not talking about that. We are talking about repatriating those convicted of serious and violent crimes. It is not at all the same thing. Associating my view with the BNP and FN is rather like associating your desire for greater equality with the Khmer Rouge - the limits and conditions matter.
Finally, i dont think a "genetic, racialised view of nationality" is in question. while we were talking about Sudanese gangs in this thread, at a policy level it does not require discrimination. Whether you come to Australia from the Uk or Sudan, a period of probationary citizenship (in effect, indefinite leave to remain) through two generations would apply, and you retain your old citizenship. You want to stay and acquire full citizenship? Here's a hint - don't murder, or rob with violence, or encourage terrorism, or commit treason etc. I know it might be a little hard, pet, but if you have to be a law-breaker, stick to petty larceny and below. Some tough things would happen as such a policy played out - but probably less tough than having your skull broken by a thug with a baseball bat, or your daughter killed through gang violence.
More broadly, of course, there is the "project" of mass immigration, legal and illegal, designed by those who live on map 45 of the Melways, but mostly lived out - for now - by the citizens of Springvale and Footscray. Fortunately the long bipartisan consensus in favour of this is breaking down right across the western world as the people find their electoral voice. |
I'm not sure how 'fortunate' it is given that the groups capitalising on this paradigm shift are precisely the kind of far-right parties I mentioned above. If you see that as a return to sanity, I can only presume you see those forces as less malignant than I do or at worst as a means to an end. Frankly, when I see the ceaseless public appetite for our own ever-harsher asylum seeker policies, I despair for the future of integration in the broader Western world. It seems to signify a global retreat into our own little villages and away from ideas of international cooperation and cultural exchange an approach that makes the world far more atomised and dangerous.
I'm not saying the jury was ever out on multiculturalism. Perhaps it is a failed experiment. But this Apex stuff seems to have little to do with the strengths or weaknesses of that model; more, a failure of social policy and addressing socioeconomic inequality that can probably be solved in the medium-term without needing to resort to drastic measures. Perhaps it's a statement of the obvious that the vast majority of African youths in Australia are not running around with criminal gangs; but I'm not confident that the majority of white Australians are aware of that on any intuitive level.
We can have a reasoned debate about the costs and benefits of multiculturalism and the broader globalist economic approach, but at the end of the day, far-right political campaigns only require the same old ingredients negative stereotypes, media hysteria and irrational fear of difference in order to succeed. If they win, it won't be because people have seen the light; it'll be because people have embraced those dark, xenophobic aspects of human nature that we all harbour. The traits that led the Germans to slaughter the Jews, the Serbs to slaughter the Bosnians and the Hutus and Tutsis to massacre each other weren't removed from the human gene pool 20 years ago. It's so easy to hate and fear; but is it so foolish to hope that we can be better than that?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | | ^ then they should go back - win win! |
........
If this seems harsh, then it is only because the comfortable classes have been conditioned to snigger at an ethic of responsibility which most ordinary people (many of them less rich and less educated) consider self-evident. ............. |
This seems to be as reflexive as your view to David that when issues of immigration are discussed the word racism is used to stifle & polarise.
In the same way the use of the term "elites" is used by well elites: see Trump, Tabloids, Turnbull, Toffs & Tories.
No evidence just rhetorical & accusatory devices that do not add to discussion.
Having said that I note you wrote this in a 10 min break from your work at the time (which is often my use of Nicks a fair proportion of the time)
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I am not very comfortable with the current "anti-elite" rhetoric, but it does seem evident to me that many of the people who vote for more immigration are largely shielded, by their skills, postcodes, or even general abilities, from the real difficulties that arise when a teacher confronts a class of children who have limited English and less social cohesion, or the health system has to employ translators rather than nurses, or a neighbourhood becomes a place where gangs thrive on fractured identities of dislocated and disoriented youth. Those with secure incomes and skills in professional classes or business interests benefit from cheaper and better cleaners, waiters and fruit-pickers. The poorer end of town picks up the social bills.
Is this observation tantamount to the fact that any defensive policies against mass immigration are met with moral conniptions and cries of racism or xenophobia ? I don't honestly think so.
What is clear to me is that, if we continue to function without a truly Conservative party (and that is not the same as the neo-liberal revolutionary conservatives we have today), then those that do emerge to capitalise on the frustrations of the working and middle classes will be increasingly truculent and dangerous. That, I think, is the first lesson of Trumpism. There is a strong whiff of Weimar about the Western world today. History does not repeat, but it rhymes.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:52 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
