 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| How do you usually introduce yourself? |
|
|
|
 |
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Baby shudder.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Some things are more important than money. Protest isn’t a popularity contest and it will inevitably alienate some people.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
As far as I can tell, the serious studies on this issue do not support systemic discrimination in shooting between black and other ethnicities, once we control for the context of a given encounter. It seems that black suspects are disproportionately represented in circumstances where shooting is likely (eg where the suspect brandishes a weapon, or creates a reasonable fear of harm). This is the factor which explains the differential rate. It is notable that recent black immigrants, largely Somali or Nigerian, rarely seem to be shot by police (though of course, as an individual, anyone can be shot in America). This does not fit the reflexive political narrative, so when politics trumps truth, it tends not to be discussed.
Why do police encounter more young black men in circumstances which make shootings more likely ? Well, non-immigrant black Americans have suffered for years from disproportionate levels of family breakdown, high rates of teenage pregnancy, low rates of educational attainment, and general economic disadvantage in a society where everyone seems be losing, except for a few at the top.
It might be wise if the kneelers actually looked at making their protests a little more sophisticated and thoughtful, rather than indulging in an act of gross oversimplification. But then, this type of protest is rarely about solving anything. Truth and level-headed inquiry should come first, politics second,but we seem to be losing the capacity for that.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Some things are more important than money. Protest isn’t a popularity contest and it will inevitably alienate some people. |
Well I guess when your making 7 figures regardless of how you position yourself for the National Anthem things can be more important than money!
But once the gate drop starts hurting the bottom line those pay packets might be in trouble.
Those huge stadiums should be packed to the rafters for some of those games if you read all the way through. That’s a lot of disgruntled supporters not paying at the gate.
Does the protest get watered down if it goes on unchanged? Is there a better way?
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | As far as I can tell, the serious studies on this issue do not support systemic discrimination in shooting between black and other ethnicities, once we control for the context of a given encounter. It seems that black suspects are disproportionately represented in circumstances where shooting is likely (eg where the suspect brandishes a weapon, or creates a reasonable fear of harm). This is the factor which explains the differential rate. It is notable that recent black immigrants, largely Somali or Nigerian, rarely seem to be shot by police (though of course, as an individual, anyone can be shot in America). This does not fit the reflexive political narrative, so when politics trumps truth, it tends not to be discussed.
Why do police encounter more young black men in circumstances which make shootings more likely ? Well, non-immigrant black Americans have suffered for years from disproportionate levels of family breakdown, high rates of teenage pregnancy, low rates of educational attainment, and general economic disadvantage in a society where everyone seems be losing, except for a few at the top.
It might be wise if the kneelers actually looked at making their protests a little more sophisticated and thoughtful, rather than indulging in an act of gross oversimplification. But then, this type of protest is rarely about solving anything. Truth and level-headed inquiry should come first, politics second,but we seem to be losing the capacity for that. |
Exactly right. And just blaming one side (even allowing for the occasion rogue or trigger happy cop) is never going to solve anything.
I’d much rather see sone focus on the sporting stars, of all colours, who are putting their money where their knees are, and that’s into programs and scholarships that assist the disadvantaged. And there are plenty that do just that.
A big mental shift is needed, not just on the blue side of the line.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | As far as I can tell, the serious studies on this issue do not support systemic discrimination in shooting between black and other ethnicities, once we control for the context of a given encounter. It seems that black suspects are disproportionately represented in circumstances where shooting is likely (eg where the suspect brandishes a weapon, or creates a reasonable fear of harm). This is the factor which explains the differential rate. It is notable that recent black immigrants, largely Somali or Nigerian, rarely seem to be shot by police (though of course, as an individual, anyone can be shot in America). This does not fit the reflexive political narrative, so when politics trumps truth, it tends not to be discussed.
Why do police encounter more young black men in circumstances which make shootings more likely ? Well, non-immigrant black Americans have suffered for years from disproportionate levels of family breakdown, high rates of teenage pregnancy, low rates of educational attainment, and general economic disadvantage in a society where everyone seems be losing, except for a few at the top.
It might be wise if the kneelers actually looked at making their protests a little more sophisticated and thoughtful, rather than indulging in an act of gross oversimplification. But then, this type of protest is rarely about solving anything. Truth and level-headed inquiry should come first, politics second,but we seem to be losing the capacity for that. |
There are plenty of pointers to ongoing discrimination against African-American men, including far higher incarceration rates, racial profiling and random searches. The police shootings of unarmed black men are just the most horrific and visible aspect of that systemic violence. I grant that a lot of that disparity is connected to existing socioeconomic disadvantage, but all of this is irrevocably tied to a long – and ongoing – history of institutionalised racism. How can that be waved away when black men are still literally dying because some police officers interpret their mere existence as a threat?
At the end of the day, these NFL players have chosen a peaceful way to protest. They’re not screaming in people’s faces, destroying public property or trying to shout others down. They’re kneeling in silence. It’s a powerful image; no wonder some spectators can’t handle it.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^ yes, they are entitled to protest, of course. That helps make America what it is. I just think their protest is inarticulate, unreasoned by its nature and jejune, and the protest of the paying public is of course also legitimate.
As to the systemic disadvantage, we agree, but the Texas study showed that, in a given context, black men are no more likely to be shot by police than other ethnicities. I am yet to see a sound rebuttal of that rigorous study.
Black men do have worse outcomes, as I said. It doubtless begins with slavery, but the question is what factors embed the disadvantage among working class black men in modern times ? If you think it is just, or largely, the eternal catch-all of “racism”, I think that needs more rigorous evidence. Living as I do in one of the most cosmopolitan cities of the world, where individuals of every background almost always rub along together pretty amiably, I think the evidence is that most people are not racist, though they do generically discriminate on features that they see as salient to threat.
The collapse of parenting in black families was first diagnosed by Daniel Moynihan in the Johnson administration (there is a reason the term motherf*cker came to be used widely in black street gangs in the late 1960s) and the consequences have been terrible, as he predicted. If you take away from young men the stabilizing influence of a male role model who goes to work, brings home money and cares for his children, you store up a whole host of problems. I suspect that lies at the root of much of the problem, but good luck finding anyone who is prepared to kneel on behalf of individual responsibility and personal restraint. That really would be an interesting protest.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | | though they do generically discriminate on features that they see as salient to threat. |
Well that's the whole problem here, isn't it? Blackness is seen as inherently threatening, therefore some police officers will overreact and innocent people will get gunned down. A handful of deaths like that a year may not make many statistical waves, but they are of course a tragedy and one that ought to be fought back against.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | though they do generically discriminate on features that they see as salient to threat. |
Well that's the whole problem here, isn't it? Blackness is seen as inherently threatening, therefore some police officers will overreact and innocent people will get gunned down. A handful of deaths like that a year may not make many statistical waves, but they are of course a tragedy and one that ought to be fought back against. |
Every unreasonable or unwarranted death is a tragedy. It demands inquiry and where appropriate, criminal sanction on the perpetrator. However, the argument is not about these individual anomalies but systemic killing based on race. Read the reputable Cesariolab.com, which puts the data into context using sensible statistical controls, and the effect disappears. The trouble is that young black men seem to commit, proportionately, way more felonies. I think the sociological reasons for this need to be open-mindedly explored if we really want more young black men to return home from the streets. If, instead, we would prefer to parade concern by kneeling in public stadia in the service of politically selective data, it’s best to be honest about that.
Regarding threat perception, one other statistic to ponder is that around 45% of fatal shootings of police are committed by black men (about 13% of American males). That is also data that requires context, but it says something about the realities of policing and race in the US.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
 |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Wokko wrote: | |
If that graph is accurate, it puts the whole thing into perspective doesn't it.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^ yep, I thought the same. The modern obsession with collective identity is about power, far more than justice.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
