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Police killings in the USA

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:58 am
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David wrote:
^ Even if you don't care about people, blowing China up would kill a pretty damn large amount of animals. Perhaps if you'd spent time there you'd have a more nuanced view of Chinese people too and be quicker to rush to their defence, rather than castigating a billion based on the behaviour of a few.
a few??? Don't get me started!

Also note I meant if we had to transfer from USA allies to China, as Tannin said, I'm kinda really hoping that doesn't happen.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:05 am
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Well, me too, but not because I think Chinese people are barbarians or subhumans. For starters, the amount of cultural and ethnic diversity in the country is staggering, and from what I recall the dog festival is a specific cultural tradition only followed in a specific part of the country. As a counterpoint, there are many people (I'm guessing you included) who think bullfighting is cruel, but I doubt you'd encourage the bombing of Spain as a result.

I understand your comment was at least somewhat flippant, but I still hate that because, ultimately, we live in a world in which thousands can be and are casually bombed with little regard for their humanity. Such sweeping dehumanisation is a key reason why it's allowed to happen.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:41 am
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Tannin wrote:

They won't. It's 20 years too late for the USA. they are part the point of no return now. You and I won't live to see it, but it's going to be a Chinese century. The USA is riddled with division and corruption and weakness. It is still a mighty power - militarily, culturally, economically - but it is rotten at the core and will fail just as surely as others like it in history - think the Ottomans, Imperial Role, Byzantium.

It's no secret that I dislike the USA, but make no mistake: when we are forced to exchange our national subservience to America with subservience to China, as we surely will be, we will be stepping out of the frying pan and into the fire. But it won't be us that see that day (unless it arrives faster than I expect) it will be our children.


Perhaps. But China, too, is riddled with corruption and hidden economic weakness masked by its its improvement from a terribly low base. China's ability to misallocate capital compared to the USA is characteristic of all dictatorships, where the uS has the resilience and reformability that comes from a free press, an adversarial system of government, and a long institutional tradition of separate powers. The Chinese have many potential strengths, but their system of government has many weaknesses. If you see the change of hegemon from a democratic power to a dictatorship as neutral, I strongly beg to differ.

As for your view that we only hear so much about the US because of media ownership, I think that's almost certainly untrue. Nearly every major cultural movement since the Second World War, and many before, have emanated, for good or ill, from that extraordinarily fertile society. Feminism, political correctness, litigation-frenzy, racial pluralism and multiculturalism (aka "diversity"), drug and youth culture, not to mention most of the ideas that guide modern business (again, for good or ill) have all been largely shaped by the US. That's why what happens there matters, and why it is reported. It's also why the BBC (inter alia) reports on American trends so heavily.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:50 am; edited 1 time in total
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 3:44 am
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PUSHUSA is a mighty power - militarily culturally economically - but it is rotten at the core and will fail as as others like it in history - think the Ottomans Imperial Role Byzantium. I suppose that makes sense.
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ronrat 



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 5:07 am
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The unsportsmanlike cheering for mistakes in the Presidents Cup makes me think the rest of the world look at at this kneeling stuff as who cares. What they do at international sports events means I have no time for their histrionics. As spectators that is.
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:03 am
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David wrote:
Well, me too, but not because I think Chinese people are barbarians or subhumans. For starters, the amount of cultural and ethnic diversity in the country is staggering, and from what I recall the dog festival is a specific cultural tradition only followed in a specific part of the country. As a counterpoint, there are many people (I'm guessing you included) who think bullfighting is cruel, but I doubt you'd encourage the bombing of Spain as a result.

I understand your comment was at least somewhat flippant, but I still hate that because, ultimately, we live in a world in which thousands can be and are casually bombed with little regard for their humanity. Such sweeping dehumanisation is a key reason why it's allowed to happen.


Ok fair enough, I stand corrected.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:04 am
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Hmmm

http://americanmilitarynews.com/2017/09/picture-of-man-kneeling-during-taps-at-tomb-of-the-unknown-soldier-is-sparking-outrage-following-nfl-protests/?utm_source=5bravos&utm_campaign=alt&utm_medium=facebook

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:10 am
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Mugwump wrote:


As for your view that we only hear so much about the US because of media ownership, I think that's almost certainly untrue. Nearly every major cultural movement since the Second World War, and many before, have emanated, for good or ill, from that extraordinarily fertile society. Feminism, political correctness, litigation-frenzy, racial pluralism and multiculturalism (aka "diversity"), drug and youth culture, not to mention most of the ideas that guide modern business (again, for good or ill) have all been largely shaped by the US. That's why what happens there matters, and why it is reported. It's also why the BBC (inter alia) reports on American trends so heavily.


They've certainly been followers in many respects as well. Slavery was abandoned there decades after much of Europe had banned it; women, too, received the vote 15-20 years after suffrage was won here and elsewhere. More recently, the push for same-sex marriage in the US followed its success in Europe and Canada, and the US still lags behind the rest of the Western world in terms of its healthcare system, whereas their education and prison systems remain primitive compared to those of more innovative European countries, a situation borne out by the data. None of this is to deny that the US has had a profound influence on the way the world has been shaped at times, but merely to point out that they are part of an overall global exchange of ideas, one in which they are often among the stragglers, not the trailblazers.

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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:27 am
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David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:


As for your view that we only hear so much about the US because of media ownership, I think that's almost certainly untrue. Nearly every major cultural movement since the Second World War, and many before, have emanated, for good or ill, from that extraordinarily fertile society. Feminism, political correctness, litigation-frenzy, racial pluralism and multiculturalism (aka "diversity"), drug and youth culture, not to mention most of the ideas that guide modern business (again, for good or ill) have all been largely shaped by the US. That's why what happens there matters, and why it is reported. It's also why the BBC (inter alia) reports on American trends so heavily.


They've certainly been followers in many respects as well. Slavery was abandoned there decades after much of Europe had banned it; women, too, received the vote 15-20 years after suffrage was won here and elsewhere. More recently, the push for same-sex marriage in the US followed its success in Europe and Canada, and the US still lags behind the rest of the Western world in terms of its healthcare system, whereas their education and prison systems remain primitive compared to those of more innovative European countries, a situation borne out by the data. None of this is to deny that the US has had a profound influence on the way the world has been shaped at times, but merely to point out that they are part of an overall global exchange of ideas, one in which they are often among the stragglers, not the trailblazers.


We always seem to hear just how bad the health system is in the USA. Well according to the WHO, they're not too bad, are they.....

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 USA
38 Slovenia
39 Cuba
40 Brunei
41 New Zealand
42 Bahrain
43 Croatia
44 Qatar
45 Kuwait
46 Barbados
47 Thailand
48 Czech Republic
49 Malaysia
50 Poland

http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:36 am
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I don't think 37th is much to write home about given their power and wealth, no. Lower than Costa Rica and Dominica, which are effectively third-world countries.
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Mountains Magpie 



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:37 am
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I wonder what Federal repercussions, one way or another, that this might have:

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-louisiana-blacklivesmatter/black-lives-matter-movement-cannot-be-sued-u-s-judge-rules-idUSKCN1C338S

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:39 am
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This isn't a surprise, is it? Suing BLM would be like suing 'feminists' or 'neo-nazis'. They're ultimately nebulous groups that don't function as institutions in any meaningful sense.
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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:43 am
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Tannin: The US is still a mighty power ... culturally.
Mugwamp: No, nearly every major cultural movement .... has emanated from the USA.
Translation: The US is not a mighty cultural power because nearly every major cultural movement has emanated from the US.

Actually, that's a strange list of examples: feminism certainly is not American, it is and always has been trans-national, with the French and the British standing high and Australians playing not a small part. Nobody even knows what "political correctness" means. (Standfast a few leftovers from the 1950s who use it as a synonym for "vague things I don't like"). Litigation-frenzy: yep, no argument on that one. Racial pluralism and multiculturalism: nope. See Canada, the UK, France, Australia, New Zealand, etc., etc. Drug and youth culture: nope - see the UK, France, and most of the rest of the Western world. Most of the ideas that guide modern business: yes, I'd have to agree on that one, though let's note that the wealthy nations which have been most successful in the last few decades (Germany, Scandanavia) are the least infected with the American ways of doing business. Germany in particular is very different.

The main source of US cultural power, however, is none of those things: it is the entertainment industry (in which I include so-called "news", which is 90% entertainment). The paranoid American Tea Party view that Hollywood is a gigantic conspiracy aimed at taking over the whole world and infecting it with "liberal" values isn't too far off the truth. It has been astonishingly successful over the last 50 years or so, though the values it promotes are, on the whole, not remotely liberal.

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Tannin Capricorn

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:58 am
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Mugwump: But China, too, is riddled with corruption.
Yep. sure.

Mugwamp: And hidden economic weakness masked by its its improvement from a terribly low base.
No argument from me.

Mugwamp: China's ability to misallocate capital compared to the USA is characteristic of all dictatorships ...
Let's not let idealogy blind us to reality here. Severe misallocation of capital is certainly not unique to, or even particularly characteristic of, dictatorships. Right here in Australia we have an insane misallocation of capital, every bit as bad as China's and very likely worse: we have vastly too much spent on non-productive assets (primarily real estate), and far too little spent on things which are actually useful and will provide a long-term ROI.
Nor is Australia unique among democracies: the US over the last two decades in particular has become obsessed with non-productive speculative financial investments to the detriment of spending on wealth-building assets. Notice that the effect of post-GFC quantitative easing and ultra-low interest rates has been minimal in terms of actual productive investment, it's nearly all been wasted on financial speculation. Now Trump wants to halve corporate taxes (not that he himself pays any tax anyway) with the pretended aim of boosting real investment. In reality, central banks have been pumping truly vast amounts of money into the system over the last 10 years, and practically none of that has been invested sensibly or productively, and there is no plan in place or even talked about to have the money given away in business tax cuts for anything useful.

US economic policy made simple:

Daddy: Well son, I gave you a fortune to start a business with via near-zero interest rates, what did you do with it?
Junior: Blew the whole lot on the pokies.

Daddy: That's OK. So I gave you another massive fortune to invest via central bank QE. What happened?
Junior: I spent it all on grog and Russian prostitutes.

Daddy: Ahh. I can see what I did wrong now, son. I didn't give you enough money. Here, have another huge fortune via a 50% tax cut.
Junior: Thanks Daddy! See you later, I'm off to the races now.

US economics has been a disaster. The massive increase in inequality over the last 30-odd years has crippled economies the world over and stifled growth. Now the "plan" the US has it to make things even worse. Their debt is already at Third World levels and they are about to supercharge it by cutting revenue. Their growth-crippling income inequality is the worst in any First World country, so their plan is to increase it. Their disfunctional parliament is unable to cut spending in any meaningful way - they cold just stop having wars but their Patriotic Religion won't allow that - so the result is going to be unsustainable debt and very, very ugly.

With any luck, you and I won't live to see the worst of it.

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Tannin Capricorn

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:00 pm
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Mugwamp: If you see the change of hegemon from a democratic power to a dictatorship as neutral ....

Which part of "from frying pan to fire" are you having trouble understanding?

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