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Police killings in the USA

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:24 pm
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Nevertheless:

https://www.snopes.com/do-police-kill-more-whites-than-black-people/

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:29 pm
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I posted a link with similar results on page 8. And it goes further. This subject needs a more rational thought process by a lot of people. Not happening any time soon Im guessing.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:44 am
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David wrote:
Nevertheless:

https://www.snopes.com/do-police-kill-more-whites-than-black-people/


...youre way too bright to play with statistics like that David. Control for the rate of violent confrontations and the effect goes away. Serious, reputable academic research (e.g. Joseph ace sarios research in Michigan) controls for context. It is more boring than inflammatory political stuff and grand kneeling gestures by millionaire victims, but it will at least point in a direction that may cause fewer deaths in the long run. The best compassion requires serious intellectual work.

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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 4:20 am
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Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
Nevertheless:

https://www.snopes.com/do-police-kill-more-whites-than-black-people/


...youre way too bright to play with statistics like that David. Control for the rate of violent confrontations and the effect goes away. Again, read the serious academic research that controls for context. It is more boring than inflammatory political stuff and grand kneeling gestures by millionaire victims, but it will at least point in a direction that may cause fewer deaths in the long run. The best compassion requires serious intellectual work.


What part of black people are 2.5 times more likely to be shot by police than white folk did you miss?

I guess black people are the real criminals so they deserve it.

Honestly if you actually view some of these police shootings of both black and non black individuals you'll see the police in the US have a lot to answer for as some clearly believe in shoot first ask questions later and it's a disgrace that they keep getting away with it.

Strictly adults only>

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=edc_1474318463

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a34_1428447128

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=396_1467864290

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=1c0_1438194148

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e33_1394667109

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3fd_1420671313

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=226_1411614555

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0c9_1414515100

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0cb_1421865901

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=b11_1467846601

Tip of the iceberg.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:11 am
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Some of those videos dont tell enough of the story. Some of them definitely should be investigated further, but you have to wonder if the story would have been different if some of those suspects had not tried to avoid arrest. The car rolling away one for a start.

Do you at anytime ask your self why the cops are so jumpy or trigger happy?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/07/05/police-officer-deaths-on-duty-have-jumped-nearly-25-percent-in-2017.html

Training, education, gun control. This isnt a one way street conversation.

Why would anyone be a cop in America?

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:33 am
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Because if you're going to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, it's better to be police than black?
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 7:40 am
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David wrote:
Nevertheless:

https://www.snopes.com/do-police-kill-more-whites-than-black-people/

That won't do, David. What place does a perfectly even-handed analysis of the figures have in a debate about victim-blaming?

https://theundefeated.com/features/in-the-national-anthem-debate-why-does-it-feel-like-everyone-lost/?addata=espnau:nfl:index
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:38 am
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swoop42 wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
Nevertheless:

https://www.snopes.com/do-police-kill-more-whites-than-black-people/


...youre way too bright to play with statistics like that David. Control for the rate of violent confrontations and the effect goes away. Again, read the serious academic research that controls for context. It is more boring than inflammatory political stuff and grand kneeling gestures by millionaire victims, but it will at least point in a direction that may cause fewer deaths in the long run. The best compassion requires serious intellectual work.


What part of black people are 2.5 times more likely to be shot by police than white folk did you miss?

I guess black people are the real criminals so they deserve it.



Individual cases are often tragic and there have been some appalling miscarriages of justice. That is not in contest. What is questionable is the proposition that a black man, in a highly-charged context, is more likely to be shot than a white man.

https://www.cesariolab.com/race-bias-in-shooting

This is not actually a difficult read, and it is a highly reputable paper from a respected professor of social science at Michigan University. The methodology behind it is statistically rigorous and careful. Now, when you are diligent enough to read it, and when you have reflected carefully on its truth and logic, and when you can mount a reasonable rebuttal of it, I'll answer your question about what I missed.

I might even answer your sneer that those who think this issue is being misrepresented through partial statistics must think "black people ...deserve it". It is wearisome, but since you made that awful allegation, let me assure you that I think nobody deserves execution without a fair trial under lawful statute (and often not then).

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Last edited by Mugwump on Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:09 am
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think positive wrote:
Some of those videos dont tell enough of the story. Some of them definitely should be investigated further, but you have to wonder if the story would have been different if some of those suspects had not tried to avoid arrest. The car rolling away one for a start.

Do you at anytime ask your self why the cops are so jumpy or trigger happy?

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/07/05/police-officer-deaths-on-duty-have-jumped-nearly-25-percent-in-2017.html

Training, education, gun control. This isnt a one way street conversation.

Why would anyone be a cop in America?


Indeed, TP, ordinary men and women, not very well paid, doing a dangerous job dealing with the roughest, most dysfunctional edges of a gun-ridden libertine society. I am glad I do not have to do it for a living. I assume they do it because they have mortgages to pay and kids to feed, but perhaps some have a residual, idealistic understanding that a functioning police force takes risks on our behalf to hold back barbarism and make our civilised life possible.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:44 am
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This was family viewing at my home when the kids were much younger & when this show was on TV: Michael Moore:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeOaTpYl8mE

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Wokko Pisces

Come and take it.


Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:39 am
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http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/dec/26/black-suspects-more-likely-to-be-shot-by-black-cop/
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:46 am
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When do you think artificial intelligence will replace lawyers?
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:18 pm
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Mugwump wrote:


Individual cases are often tragic and there have been some appalling miscarriages of justice. That is not in contest. What is questionable is the proposition that a black man, in a highly-charged context, is more likely to be shot than a white man.

https://www.cesariolab.com/race-bias-in-shooting

This is not actually a difficult read, and it is a highly reputable paper from a respected professor of social science at Michigan University. The methodology behind it is statistically rigorous and careful.


Good article and reflects a comment I was about to make, adjusting the figures based on population doesn't work.

Blacks are more highly represented in crime statistics and in Gaol. Is this pure racial bias or a reflection that a higher percentage of Blacks live in poverty than whites, and poverty is a well established link with crime.

https://www.census.gov/prod/2013pubs/acsbr11-17.pdf

So when every American has easy access to guns, and Blacks are more highly represented in crime stats than blacks, any cop pulling up a black person will be on heightened alert. That's not racial profiling, that's preservation instinct kicking in.

The Black Lives Matter people should focus on getting more black people educated and into higher paid employment, reducing poverty and crime if they really want to save black lives

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:57 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
So when every American has easy access to guns, and Blacks are more highly represented in crime stats than blacks, any cop pulling up a black person will be on heightened alert. That's not racial profiling, that's preservation instinct kicking in.


Its both, though. Cant you see? If youre a cop and you get nervous and trigger-happy around African-Americans because of reasons x, y or z (no matter how justified they may seem), you are a danger to innocent black men. I agree that crime and poverty are closely related, and that the overrepresentation of African-Americans in crime rates is mostly a reflection of that fact. How does that justify racial profiling and prejudice, particularly when it has lethal consequences? It may explain it, but it certainly doesnt make it ok.

Imagine youre an African-American for a moment, particularly one who lives in a poor area: not only do you have to put up with the fact that the people around you disproportionately live in poverty and hardship, but, partially as a consequence of that historic inequality and subjugation, the young men in your community run the risk of getting accidentally gunned down by police because of the colour of their skin. Would you be outraged? I know I $$%^%%$ would be.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:25 am
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David wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
So when every American has easy access to guns, and Blacks are more highly represented in crime stats than blacks, any cop pulling up a black person will be on heightened alert. That's not racial profiling, that's preservation instinct kicking in.


Its both, though. Cant you see? If youre a cop and you get nervous and trigger-happy around African-Americans because of reasons x, y or z (no matter how justified they may seem), you are a danger to innocent black men. I agree that crime and poverty are closely related, and that the overrepresentation of African-Americans in crime rates is mostly a reflection of that fact. How does that justify racial profiling and prejudice, particularly when it has lethal consequences? It may explain it, but it certainly doesnt make it ok.

Imagine youre an African-American for a moment, particularly one who lives in a poor area: not only do you have to put up with the fact that the people around you disproportionately live in poverty and hardship, but, partially as a consequence of that historic inequality and subjugation, the young men in your community run the risk of getting accidentally gunned down by police because of the colour of their skin. Would you be outraged? I know I $$%^%%$ would be.


If I were born in those circumstances, I might well be outraged. but I'd hope that a wise voice, hopefully a parent, would say "you have been a dealt a difficult hand in life, starting here, but the main risk is not that you'll be shot by police. It's that you will waste time getting angry about things you can't control, and not work on the things you can.

If you are stopped by police, then engage with them politely and with respect and cooperation. If they do not do the same to you, then make a complaint later. They have a lot of pressures and fear and they get a lot of shit, so don't take risks with them.

Meanwhile, the best thing you can do is not to become outraged, but instead to study, to learn and work and save money and stay within the law, because you're better than this place. That is the best way to make a difference to yourself and your people."

Such a voice would be more likely to save lives than the siren voices which sing "it's all their fault, what's happening to me".

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Last edited by Mugwump on Thu Nov 02, 2017 2:46 am; edited 1 time in total
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