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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Good links P4S,
Marshall lost endorsements and fans over the protests. but he also received kudos from Broncos general manager John Elway -- who's no fan of the kneel-downs -- for backing up his actions with charity and community work.
Marshall ended his protests last year after Denver police agreed to change their use-of-force policy.
Sounds like it had a good result, well done to him, and note the comments about charity and community work. Kudu's.
but where does that end, and become something else?
I prefer the 'unity' stance personally.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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i suppose this kind of grandstanding is what passes for argument in the great democracy nowadays. Forget careful discussion of facts, context, and meaning. Instead make emotive gestures in public, showing your sympathies, and let the shouting begin. So, gradually, does everyday life turn into a fractious political rally, and we become ever less-civilised toward one another.
For the avoidance of doubt, this applies both to the black footballer and to the preposterous poltroon, Trump ....but at least Trump is a politician. If you like the idea of sportsmen using their sport as a platform for political statements, be prepared for the occasion when some views you really hate are "platformed" in this way. Then the fun will really begin.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| think positive wrote: | Good links P4S,
Marshall lost endorsements and fans over the protests. but he also received kudos from Broncos general manager John Elway -- who's no fan of the kneel-downs -- for backing up his actions with charity and community work.
Marshall ended his protests last year after Denver police agreed to change their use-of-force policy.
Sounds like it had a good result, well done to him, and note the comments about charity and community work. Kudu's.
but where does that end, and become something else?
I prefer the 'unity' stance personally. |
I don't especially have a view on it, TP (mostly because I don't really understand the sentimental attachment of many Americans to their anthem) - but I thought those who are interested in the topic might want to have a look at those articles - I follow the NFL and the articles were there when I was checking to see whether Bakhtiari or Bulaga would start tomorrow for Green Bay against Chicago.
Those two, along with the rest of the Green Bay O-Line, hold the most important position in the US' national security program - they prevent Aaron Rodgers from getting his legs broken by opposition linebackers.  |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Mugwamp, just step back for a minute and look at the context. See the whole picture as if looking at it for the first time.
American sporting organisations routinely put on grandiose displays of overt patriotism: it's not just standing up and singing a song, it's a big, crass ceremony with flags and music and rituals all working to reinforce their fanatical religious belief in the fantasy American: the one that (in their dreams) "Leads the Free World" and is "the Land of Opportunity" and the Seat of Justice and the most Omnipowerful Military in the Whole of History, and the Arsenal of Democracy, and the Fairest, Richest, Most Decent, Most Welcoming Country on Earth, all defended by Our Mighty Heroes in Uniform who seek nothing but to Protect and Serve in the Name of Peace, Justice, and the American Way.
Now that's what Americans do. OK, it makes any normal citizen of any normal country cringe with embarrassment at the sheer egotistical crassness of it all, but so what? It's not as if other countries don't have their own weird customs and beliefs.
In short, I agree with you that grandstanding is not appropriate at a football game or a basketball stadium, even though the Yanks do it as routine.
However it is beyond ridiculous to pretend that footballers standing up to grandstand a massive lie (as they do and have done for years) are somehow superior to footballers kneeling to grandstand the truth - which is that the Great American Lie is precisely that, a lie, and the truth is that white Americans in Uniform are killing black Americans stone dead and getting away with it every bloody week. And I do mean bloody in the exact, literal sense of the word.
For America to survive, it must above all regain some unity, and the only way they will ever have a chance of achieving a measure of unity is to stop pretending that black American lives don't matter.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Standing ovation. Well said!
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| think positive wrote: | | White lives matter too, and so do the lives of the cops. Your kidding yourself if you think the place is flooded with bad cops. |
Nobody thinks that. Well. nobody with a brain.
| think positive wrote: | | under trained, undermanned, and against the wall, but not all bad. |
^ Exactly. This is 50% of the problem.
The other 50% is that the bad ones never, ever get weeded out. They blow some poor unarmed bastard away for the crime of being black and in a car and what happens?
Sweet nuffin.
Why not? Because the authorities tasked with managing the police and justice system don't manage it. And when an openly racist senior cop is finally - years too late - convicted, what happens? Trump gives him a pardon and says "love your work".
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Tannin wrote: | Mugwamp, just step back for a minute and look at the context. See the whole picture as if looking at it for the first time.
American sporting organisations routinely put on grandiose displays of overt patriotism: it's not just standing up and singing a song, it's a big, crass ceremony with flags and music and rituals all working to reinforce their fanatical religious belief in the fantasy American: the one that (in their dreams) "Leads the Free World" and is "the Land of Opportunity" and the Seat of Justice and the most Omnipowerful Military in the Whole of History, and the Arsenal of Democracy, and the Fairest, Richest, Most Decent, Most Welcoming Country on Earth, all defended by Our Mighty Heroes in Uniform who seek nothing but to Protect and Serve in the Name of Peace, Justice, and the American Way.
Now that's what Americans do. OK, it makes any normal citizen of any normal country cringe with embarrassment at the sheer egotistical crassness of it all, but so what? It's not as if other countries don't have their own weird customs and beliefs.
In short, I agree with you that grandstanding is not appropriate at a football game or a basketball stadium, even though the Yanks do it as routine.
However it is beyond ridiculous to pretend that footballers standing up to grandstand a massive lie (as they do and have done for years) are somehow superior to footballers kneeling to grandstand the truth - which is that the Great American Lie is precisely that, a lie, and the truth is that white Americans in Uniform are killing black Americans stone dead and getting away with it every bloody week. And I do mean bloody in the exact, literal sense of the word.
For America to survive, it must above all regain some unity, and the only way they will ever have a chance of achieving a measure of unity is to stop pretending that black American lives don't matter. |
I have spent a lot of time in the US, and I now that your representation above is a fantasy. Certainly, many Americans feel powerfully patriotic, as I think do many Australians (self included) when they play the national anthem at the MCG ; but many of the same Americans I know who feel a powerful sense of patriotism and justified pride in their nation's history and relative benignity, are also acutely aware of issues of social justice, present and historic, within their society. There is no great lie being enacted when they stand for the national anthem ; rather, a great truth about America's remarkable nature, and a great expression of the unity that you deny.
The subject of police shootings of black citizens is a complicated one, hedged about with questions such as America's insane gun laws, high levels of black criminality and socioeconomic disadvantage, and police and community attitudes toward each other. The best study seems to be that made by Roland Fryer Jr, a Harvard economist (black, as it happens). His careful study, based on the detail of individual incidents in Houston, is probably as methodologically rigorous as it is possible to be on this type of subject. It showed that police are more likely to use non-lethal force on black(and Hispanic) citizens, but no more likely to use lethal force on black citizens than on white, in comparable circumstances. This issue, in short, is complex : way too complex to be reduced to just another gesture in this gestural age, however warm inside it makes people feel to do so.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | Mugwamp, just step back for a minute and look at the context. See the whole picture as if looking at it for the first time.
American sporting organisations routinely put on grandiose displays of overt patriotism: it's not just standing up and singing a song, it's a big, crass ceremony with flags and music and rituals all working to reinforce their fanatical religious belief in the fantasy American: the one that (in their dreams) "Leads the Free World" and is "the Land of Opportunity" and the Seat of Justice and the most Omnipowerful Military in the Whole of History, and the Arsenal of Democracy, and the Fairest, Richest, Most Decent, Most Welcoming Country on Earth, all defended by Our Mighty Heroes in Uniform who seek nothing but to Protect and Serve in the Name of Peace, Justice, and the American Way.
Now that's what Americans do. OK, it makes any normal citizen of any normal country cringe with embarrassment at the sheer egotistical crassness of it all, but so what? It's not as if other countries don't have their own weird customs and beliefs.
In short, I agree with you that grandstanding is not appropriate at a football game or a basketball stadium, even though the Yanks do it as routine.
However it is beyond ridiculous to pretend that footballers standing up to grandstand a massive lie (as they do and have done for years) are somehow superior to footballers kneeling to grandstand the truth - which is that the Great American Lie is precisely that, a lie, and the truth is that white Americans in Uniform are killing black Americans stone dead and getting away with it every bloody week. And I do mean bloody in the exact, literal sense of the word.
For America to survive, it must above all regain some unity, and the only way they will ever have a chance of achieving a measure of unity is to stop pretending that black American lives don't matter. |
I have spent a lot of time in the US, and I now that your representation above is a fantasy. Certainly, many Americans feel powerfully patriotic, as I think do many Australians (self included) when they play the national anthem at the MCG ; but many of the same Americans I know who feel a powerful sense of patriotism and justified pride in their nation's history and relative benignity, are also acutely aware of issues of social justice, present and historic, within their society. There is no great lie being enacted when they stand for the national anthem ; rather, a great truth about America's remarkable nature, and a great expression of the unity that you deny.
The subject of police shootings of black citizens is a complicated one, hedged about with questions such as America's insane gun laws, high levels of black criminality and socioeconomic disadvantage, and police and community attitudes toward each other. The best study seems to be that made by Roland Fryer Jr, a Harvard economist (black, as it happens). His careful study, based on the detail of individual incidents in Houston, is probably as methodologically rigorous as it is possible to be on this type of subject. It showed that police are more likely to use non-lethal force on black(and Hispanic) citizens, but no more likely to use lethal force on black citizens than on white, in comparable circumstances. This issue, in short, is complex : way too complex to be reduced to just another gesture in this gestural age, however warm inside it makes people feel to do so. |
Yep, agree, and I don't know how they fix it, it will take more than gun control, a complete shift in psych, and new levels of trust. Such a massive melting pot, so many people,
I really hope they get there.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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..
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
Last edited by Morrigu on Wed Feb 21, 2018 10:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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A fantasy? That's just balls. They are fanatics about patriotism - or rather, they are fanatics about the rituals of patriotism. There is no term for their sort of ostentatious display of patriotism, but in matters spiritual rather than nationalistic it is called religiosity: the obsession with the trappings and appearances and rituals of religion rather than its substance.
Saying that there are sane Americans as wellwho don't go in for that carp ... well sure there are. But it is ridiculous to pretend that the American hand-on-heart flag-waving patriotic ostentation does not exist. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another large non-dictatorship in the world that does as much of it as they do.
| think positive wrote: | | I really hope they get there. |
They won't. It's 20 years too late for the USA. they are part the point of no return now. You and I won't live to see it, but it's going to be a Chinese century. The USA is riddled with division and corruption and weakness. It is still a mighty power - militarily, culturally, economically - but it is rotten at the core and will fail just as surely as others like it in history - think the Ottomans, Imperial Role, Byzantium.
It's no secret that I dislike the USA, but make no mistake: when we are forced to exchange our national subservience to America with subservience to China, as we surely will be, we will be stepping out of the frying pan and into the fire. But it won't be us that see that day (unless it arrives faster than I expect) it will be our children.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Q: Why do the poxy media here and around the world care more about what happens in septic land than elsewhere in the world!
A: Who owns the poxy media? There will be a short quiz after school.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Tannin wrote: | A fantasy? That's just balls. They are fanatics about patriotism - or rather, they are fanatics about the rituals of patriotism. There is no term for their sort of ostentatious display of patriotism, but in matters spiritual rather than nationalistic it is called religiosity: the obsession with the trappings and appearances and rituals of religion rather than its substance.
Saying that there are sane Americans as wellwho don't go in for that carp ... well sure there are. But it is ridiculous to pretend that the American hand-on-heart flag-waving patriotic ostentation does not exist. Off the top of my head, I can't think of another large non-dictatorship in the world that does as much of it as they do.
| think positive wrote: | | I really hope they get there. |
They won't. It's 20 years too late for the USA. they are part the point of no return now. You and I won't live to see it, but it's going to be a Chinese century. The USA is riddled with division and corruption and weakness. It is still a mighty power - militarily, culturally, economically - but it is rotten at the core and will fail just as surely as others like it in history - think the Ottomans, Imperial Role, Byzantium.
It's no secret that I dislike the USA, but make no mistake: when we are forced to exchange our national subservience to America with subservience to China, as we surely will be, we will be stepping out of the frying pan and into the fire. But it won't be us that see that day (unless it arrives faster than I expect) it will be our children. |
Hopefully someone blows China up then. You can judge a man (people) by the way they treat their animals. The yulin festival says it all. I'd fight that day with the last breath I have. And tell my kids to get the hell out just in case!
By the way, it's really not rotten to the core, for every bad story I can show you a faith in humanity one, for every bad cop, an exceptional one. Pretty much like every other country. That I've been to anyway!
I've met so many good people there, I'm one of those annoying people who will talk to anyone. You probably noticed that over lunch! I had a good ol chin wag with an amazing lady in Seattle while we did our laundry. She had such a facinating tale. African American, talked freely about racism, gun control, just wanting to make a decent life for her family. So hard with the wages situation, and the rents. And many others. They are just like us, with bigger hoops to jump through. Cheers
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Even if you don't care about people, blowing China up would kill a pretty damn large amount of animals. Perhaps if you'd spent time there you'd have a more nuanced view of Chinese people too and be quicker to rush to their defence, rather than castigating a billion based on the behaviour of a few.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| You seem uncertain. There exists you'd spent time there you'd. |
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