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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Typical. If you only read the opinions of people you agree with you only get one side of the argument.
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That's true so stop reading Wilson.
Baum gives a balanced picture being an ex owner |
You didn't even read the article, did you.
If you did, you'd realise there's holes in the report that the government used to justify their actions that you could drift park a b double in.
Morrigu, you are one who I know is not a lemming. You may well be right in what you say, I don't know. But those who simply choose the evidence that they like without actually seeing if it's real.................
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ well I am beginning to understand why people don't think for themselves and just believe and place their faith in their sky fairy ( nah not really  )
Stats can be used and manipulated to support, argue against or disprove.
Evidence can be disputed if the findings are not aligned with ones beliefs or motivations - the method was flawed, the findings inconsistent, it's not an RCT, the conclusions and recommendations cannot reliably be authenticated or endorsed because I have found a reason not to.
Facts - see above.
Opinions - our waffling based on our own beliefs, wants, desires and interpretation of stated stats, evidence and facts. Unless you are a journo ( or a B C D grade celeb masquerading as a journo) and then it is based on maximum exposure cause that will pay the bills and get you more gigs!
Truth - what do you want to believe for that will be your truth.
All you can do is try and assess without bias - and I don't think anyone can truly do that - and make the best informed decision you can.
What I can believe is what my eyes see and when those with a different perspective and goal cannot and do not even try to discredit the vision and sanctions and charges result - well that I can truly believe!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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LOL. Good call.
It may well be that the industry is as $%$ed up as is being made out, and if so then banning it is one legitimate option.
I'm just not sure that one report that has serious credibility issues and didn't even recommend that the industry be banned (it was one of a few options to be considered) should be justification to ban it.
NSW has form in bullshit kneejerk decisions, the lock out laws being exhibit A
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | Typical. If you only read the opinions of people you agree with you only get one side of the argument.
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That's true so stop reading Wilson.
Baum gives a balanced picture being an ex owner |
You didn't even read the article, did you.
If you did, you'd realise there's holes in the report that the government used to justify their actions that you could drift park a b double in.
.... |
You can't have it both ways Stui. You accused me of not reading the article - I did. Then to hedge your bets you said if you did...
1. Wilson loses credibility for using stupid & inflammatory terms like animal activists to polarise & use a straw man argument.
2. Wilson then uses the term PC to further alienate & imply basically that all those who support banning Greyhound racing are PC as though there is no merit in the argument. It's a shallow analysis.
3. Wilson's argument then goes to money & industry. That is, if people are making a living out of Greyhound racing then it is assumed it is axiomatically an unqualified good - simplistic & baloney.
Baum on the other hand makes these interesting observations:
"...The way humans harness animals to their amusement changes constantly, too. There was cock-fighting, and bear-baiting, and dog-fighting and still is in some places, but marginalised and at every turn of the page, horses, who must wonder how it is that dogs are called man's best friend. There was even greyhound racing with monkeys as jockeys, briefly. Bull-fighting has a rich lore, but is now a bit naff, and in truth, like boxing, always was over-romanticised, anyway. ....
Greyhound racing has only ever been a blip, practised in merely eight countries, and you can now make that seven-and-a-half. .......
But times do change. ....."
Much more considered, not blaming, & if you read the article much more nuanced than Wilson. That is, compassionate & insightful writing not silly limited point scoring that Wilson was doing.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I don't think referring to animal rights activists as what they are is stupid or inflammatory, it's a necessary detail.
People like PETA have an extreme view, as such any info they push out should be read with that understanding.
As I said earlier, doesn't mean they're wrong in this case but only an idiot would take their claims on face value, so it deserves to be mentioned.
Yeah, humans have a long history of domesticating and abusing animals and yeah, things change.
If the greyhound industry really is that bad, get rid of it. I won't lose a moments sleep over it.
As long as the decision is made based on facts.
Morrigu, the majority of people don't know a fat rats clacker about greyhound racing and care even less, unless they're told that animals are being made to suffer then they get their backs up and rightly so. But again, basing an opinion on a few soundbytes on the news isn't informed decision making.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| How can I help you? How much did it cost? |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | As long as the decision is made based on facts
Morrigu, the majority of people don't know a fat rats clacker about greyhound racing and care even less, unless they're told that animals are being made to suffer then they get their backs up and rightly so. But again, basing an opinion on a few soundbytes on the news isn't informed decision making. |
Correct but an expose clearly demonstrating reasonably systemic cruelty not a few sound bytes - that could not be and was not refuted by the industry - so much so that charges were laid I reckon was enough for reasonable people to say enough! That was just the final straw for me - I have read for longer and more widely.
Facts are maniputable - research that has been published in prestigious peer reviewed journals and hailed as a major breakthrough has later been discredited as researchers " fudged" their findings.
The pharmaceutical industry are the masters of this - clinical trial results are manipulated and drugs approved for use ( big bucks in drugs) only to have many withdrawn because they have caused more harm then good.
Both sides in this argument have vested interests - I just don't know how ( actually I don't believe ) anything that is presented can be " absolute" fact.
But there is clear evidence of horrific cruelty and sneaky self serving management e.g. the governing Board trying to hide such practices and not actively governing or acting to eradicate and prevent further such acts.
Given that much of the research that informs this and many reports is reliant on qualitative methodology ( apart from some stats which the Board have admitted they under reported) - what for you constitutes facts???
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | I don't think referring to animal rights activists as what they are is stupid or inflammatory, it's a necessary detail.
People like PETA have an extreme view, as such any info they push out should be read with that understanding.
As I said earlier, doesn't mean they're wrong in this case but only an idiot would take their claims on face value, so it deserves to be mentioned.
Yeah, humans have a long history of domesticating and abusing animals and yeah, things change.
If the greyhound industry really is that bad, get rid of it. I won't lose a moments sleep over it.
As long as the decision is made based on facts.
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1. It ain't personal Stui
2. Why use PETA, try the oh so radical RSPCA for starters (PETA wont have a bar of them). That's where the term animal rightists is loaded in my view. (I once had a crush on a 14 year old girl in Sydney called Peta - she looked my way once - then I knew I was in love & thought she must have had feelings for me too but I digress)
3. Facts is a loaded term, why?
* Because the greyhound industry say they are using facts.
* Those who support greyhound racing bans also use facts.
* In WW2 the Nazis stated they were using facts (oh no not the nazis)  & I'm not using the analogy one way or the other here merely that the term is not objective.
* The libs use facts, ALP use facts, fact is I could do with a beer now.
I reckon it's also couched in such a way (not by you specifically) that those who want greyhound racing are considered emotional (women) & those who support greyhound industry are dealing with facts (men).
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Drawing some long bows there.
All I'm saying is that the report the government relied on to do the banning has some serious and fundamental flaws in it.
I mention PETA because they have form in pushing misleading information out and have been running a long campaign toward this end.
Apart from this one dodgy review and the TV show investigation (instigated by PETA if I'm not mistaken), I'm not aware that there's other hard evidence of malpractice in NSW or that the malpractice has continued on post the TV show.
What would constitute hard evidence for me (or facts if you like) would be a proper review, like a royal commission, that actually interviews people and takes evidence and doesn't rely on lifting information from 10 year old reports on activities overseas.
As I've stated repeatedly, I'm not actually defending greyhound racing, I don't care either way. It's the principle for me of a government banning something based on a small sample of information provided by people with an agenda. I see a trend toward this and I don't like it.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | | the TV show investigation (instigated by PETA if I'm not mistaken) |
You are mistaken twas Animals Australia and Animal Liberation Queensland.
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Fairy Nuff. So they aren't affiliated with PETA? I seem to recall they were in the action somewhere.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Fairy Nuff. So they aren't affiliated with PETA? I seem to recall they were in the action somewhere. |
All of us activists and supporters of animal rights are affiliated in some way we share a common goal - bit like QLD magpies et al with Melbourne magpies.
But no PETA just supported what Animals Australia did in this instance
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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Greyhound ban: Report on Hunter Valley mass grave details 'slaughter',
A report by senior barrister Clive Steirn found it was likely at least 99 greyhounds were brutally killed and buried at the property over four years, between 2009 and 2013.
The report said most of the dogs suffered either gunshot wounds or blunt force trauma.
Mr Grant said he believed more information about greyhound abuse would come to light in the months ahead.
"The matter is now being referred to the New South Wales police for investigation of individuals who are alleged to have been involved in this," he said.
"I am aware that there are many suspects in this matter who have been very vocal against the ban on greyhound racing, and now it's clear to see why.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-20/nsw-greyhound-racing-killings-hunter-valley-mass-grave/7644012
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| Morrigu wrote: | Greyhound ban: Report on Hunter Valley mass grave details 'slaughter',
A report by senior barrister Clive Steirn found it was likely at least 99 greyhounds were brutally killed and buried at the property over four years, between 2009 and 2013.
The report said most of the dogs suffered either gunshot wounds or blunt force trauma.
Mr Grant said he believed more information about greyhound abuse would come to light in the months ahead.
"The matter is now being referred to the New South Wales police for investigation of individuals who are alleged to have been involved in this," he said.
"I am aware that there are many suspects in this matter who have been very vocal against the ban on greyhound racing, and now it's clear to see why.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-07-20/nsw-greyhound-racing-killings-hunter-valley-mass-grave/7644012 |
And the perpertrators of this heinous crime, in 2013, should feel the full brunt of the law.
I find the below quote from the greyhound trainer (Bob Whitelaw), who reported this kennel, 2 decades ago, interesting....
But Mr Whitelaw said the Government was only releasing details of the report now to strengthen its case to shut down racing in New South Wales.
"They're copping such a backlash from the industry and people outside the industry, it's probably great timing for [Deputy Premier] Troy Grant to release that report," he said.
"We've been saying for over 20 years that there were problems within Greyhound Racing New South Wales, including animal welfare.
"They never did anything about it."
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Don't count the days, make the days count.
Last edited by Skids on Wed Jul 20, 2016 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| Skids wrote: | "We've been saying for over 20 years that there were problems within Greyhound Racing New South Wales, including animal welfare.
"They never did anything about it." |
Correct!
And they still would not have done anything if it hadn't been bought to the attention of the general public via the Four Corners expose - and then the useless bastards had to do something cause they started coping grief from their constituents!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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