 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| jackcass wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | Coupla comments about G. Ablett seem to be forgetting that he played the first 5 years of his career on the wing.
Need a fair tank for that.
And wing would be classed as "midfield" in modern speak. |
He certainly played there - whether he was any good at it is a whole different question. I remember going to Kardinia Park in 1984 and watching Abernethy destroy Ablett. They played on each other all day and Bruce ripped him apart, especially in the last quarter - he was simply too fast and too talented for Ablett. I thought Ablett really played mostly forward, rather than wing, from around that time.
There was never anyone who could stop Carman when he turned up to play - his problem was that he beat himself. Carman was much more versatile than Ablett - he played centre, wing, CHF, FF and CHB all to a ridiculously high standard and, in the twilight of his career, second-ruck - it's fair to say that he managed the "Leigh Brown role" a little better than Leigh did - have a look, eg, at his stats against Collingwood in the two 1982 North games.
There is little footage of Carman and that's a terrible shame. One abiding memory I have of him is the stunning mark he took in the scoreboard pocket at the Yarra Falls End in the second game against North in '77. I saw it from the Rush Stand and I simply couldn't believe that someone could jump across the top of a pack like that, without getting a "lift" from someone. The mark was below and to the left of where the TV cameras used to be placed at Vic Park and it didn't look that much on the replay but it remains the single greatest mark I have ever seen (it is possible that the photo on p 33 of Michael Roberts' book "A Century of the Best" is of that mark with Carman on the way down - it was certainly a grab he took on a muddy day). There is a photo of a mark he took against Footscray on p 37 of Roberts' book that gives a bit of a hint of the spring he had. Anyway, he demoralised North that day - he seemed to take about every second Collingwood mark, all over the ground (in fact, the stats show he only took every fourth [!!!] Collingwood mark) and when he wasn't kicking goals himself, he was making them for others.
In that fateful 1977 second-semi, he basically got Collingwood over the line and into the Grand Final against a team that was better than us, full of stars and had much more of the ball on the day. It's all very well for people to criticise him for hitting Tuck along the way but he actually all-but won the flag for Collingwood that day by getting us past our major threat. Collingwood and Hawthorn were the best sides of 1977 (it was quite a shock when Hawthorn lost the prelim to North) and, as I've said previously, the team that was on the park on GF day leading by 27 points at three-quarter time against a side that had only managed 4 goals for the day (and none for about an hour in the middle part) really shouldn't have been looking to the stands for a scapegoat. There were 20 players responsible for that debacle - and Carman wasn't one. |
One of the best games I ever watched Ablett play was in '85, he played off a wing at the G and tore us a new one, made Ricky Barham look silly. We won the game, just couldn't stop Ablett. Didn't get to see a lot of Geelong games back in those days so probably not a huge sample to go by. |
Too big and strong for Ricky - although Ricky would have been too quick in a straight line, if he was properly fit by that stage of his career (I can't really remember - he had such a lengthy fitness decline). |
|
|
|
 |
jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | Coupla comments about G. Ablett seem to be forgetting that he played the first 5 years of his career on the wing.
Need a fair tank for that.
And wing would be classed as "midfield" in modern speak. |
He certainly played there - whether he was any good at it is a whole different question. I remember going to Kardinia Park in 1984 and watching Abernethy destroy Ablett. They played on each other all day and Bruce ripped him apart, especially in the last quarter - he was simply too fast and too talented for Ablett. I thought Ablett really played mostly forward, rather than wing, from around that time.
There was never anyone who could stop Carman when he turned up to play - his problem was that he beat himself. Carman was much more versatile than Ablett - he played centre, wing, CHF, FF and CHB all to a ridiculously high standard and, in the twilight of his career, second-ruck - it's fair to say that he managed the "Leigh Brown role" a little better than Leigh did - have a look, eg, at his stats against Collingwood in the two 1982 North games.
There is little footage of Carman and that's a terrible shame. One abiding memory I have of him is the stunning mark he took in the scoreboard pocket at the Yarra Falls End in the second game against North in '77. I saw it from the Rush Stand and I simply couldn't believe that someone could jump across the top of a pack like that, without getting a "lift" from someone. The mark was below and to the left of where the TV cameras used to be placed at Vic Park and it didn't look that much on the replay but it remains the single greatest mark I have ever seen (it is possible that the photo on p 33 of Michael Roberts' book "A Century of the Best" is of that mark with Carman on the way down - it was certainly a grab he took on a muddy day). There is a photo of a mark he took against Footscray on p 37 of Roberts' book that gives a bit of a hint of the spring he had. Anyway, he demoralised North that day - he seemed to take about every second Collingwood mark, all over the ground (in fact, the stats show he only took every fourth [!!!] Collingwood mark) and when he wasn't kicking goals himself, he was making them for others.
In that fateful 1977 second-semi, he basically got Collingwood over the line and into the Grand Final against a team that was better than us, full of stars and had much more of the ball on the day. It's all very well for people to criticise him for hitting Tuck along the way but he actually all-but won the flag for Collingwood that day by getting us past our major threat. Collingwood and Hawthorn were the best sides of 1977 (it was quite a shock when Hawthorn lost the prelim to North) and, as I've said previously, the team that was on the park on GF day leading by 27 points at three-quarter time against a side that had only managed 4 goals for the day (and none for about an hour in the middle part) really shouldn't have been looking to the stands for a scapegoat. There were 20 players responsible for that debacle - and Carman wasn't one. |
One of the best games I ever watched Ablett play was in '85, he played off a wing at the G and tore us a new one, made Ricky Barham look silly. We won the game, just couldn't stop Ablett. Didn't get to see a lot of Geelong games back in those days so probably not a huge sample to go by. |
Too big and strong for Ricky - although Ricky would have been too quick in a straight line, if he was properly fit by that stage of his career (I can't really remember - he had such a lengthy fitness decline). |
Not a lot in it size wise back in 85 but Barham definitely coming toward the end. A young bull named Millane had had a few games to that time but really emerged later that season. |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | didick wrote: | | 5 from the wing on debut wrote: | | It's very hard to compare players from different times, with different playing styles, against each other. |
I wasn't around to see PC play, but he sounds amazing. A player that can rip an opponent to shreds.
Does it really happen that often nowadays? Doesn't seem to. How would players like PC go in the modern game with the current style? Would their brilliance shine through?
I turned on the Hawks and Port game last night and within two minutes turned it off. So much congestion, too many players around the ball, too much stop starting. I asked my self if the individual brilliance of a player in yesteryear would come through today, and if not, are we be being robbed of entertainment and the thrills of the game? |
He wouldn't play a key position, nowadays (he was only about Buckley's height) but he'd certainly be the most-talented centreman or ruck-rover at any club. |
He wouldn't play as a permanent KPP no doubt, but he would spend time forward and do damage.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | Coupla comments about G. Ablett seem to be forgetting that he played the first 5 years of his career on the wing.
Need a fair tank for that.
And wing would be classed as "midfield" in modern speak. |
He certainly played there - whether he was any good at it is a whole different question. I remember going to Kardinia Park in 1984 and watching Abernethy destroy Ablett. They played on each other all day and Bruce ripped him apart, especially in the last quarter - he was simply too fast and too talented for Ablett. I thought Ablett really played mostly forward, rather than wing, from around that time.
There was never anyone who could stop Carman when he turned up to play - his problem was that he beat himself. Carman was much more versatile than Ablett - he played centre, wing, CHF, FF and CHB all to a ridiculously high standard and, in the twilight of his career, second-ruck - it's fair to say that he managed the "Leigh Brown role" a little better than Leigh did - have a look, eg, at his stats against Collingwood in the two 1982 North games.
There is little footage of Carman and that's a terrible shame. One abiding memory I have of him is the stunning mark he took in the scoreboard pocket at the Yarra Falls End in the second game against North in '77. I saw it from the Rush Stand and I simply couldn't believe that someone could jump across the top of a pack like that, without getting a "lift" from someone. The mark was below and to the left of where the TV cameras used to be placed at Vic Park and it didn't look that much on the replay but it remains the single greatest mark I have ever seen (it is possible that the photo on p 33 of Michael Roberts' book "A Century of the Best" is of that mark with Carman on the way down - it was certainly a grab he took on a muddy day). There is a photo of a mark he took against Footscray on p 37 of Roberts' book that gives a bit of a hint of the spring he had. Anyway, he demoralised North that day - he seemed to take about every second Collingwood mark, all over the ground (in fact, the stats show he only took every fourth [!!!] Collingwood mark) and when he wasn't kicking goals himself, he was making them for others.
In that fateful 1977 second-semi, he basically got Collingwood over the line and into the Grand Final against a team that was better than us, full of stars and had much more of the ball on the day. It's all very well for people to criticise him for hitting Tuck along the way but he actually all-but won the flag for Collingwood that day by getting us past our major threat. Collingwood and Hawthorn were the best sides of 1977 (it was quite a shock when Hawthorn lost the prelim to North) and, as I've said previously, the team that was on the park on GF day leading by 27 points at three-quarter time against a side that had only managed 4 goals for the day (and none for about an hour in the middle part) really shouldn't have been looking to the stands for a scapegoat. There were 20 players responsible for that debacle - and Carman wasn't one. |
I was at the Geelong game as well and remember it vividly for three reasons although I thought it was a bit earlier than that. Firstly, because there had been some hype about Ablett but Abernethy completely dominated him as Ablett just couldn't go with him. Secondly, and even moe memorably, the ground was packed and some spectators climbed onto the roof of a pie kiosk just near where we were standing. Not long into the first quarter there was a loud crash and bash as they fell through the tin roof and into the kiosk. Thirdly, we went to a pub in Geelong after the game and as I walked to the toilets a bloke gave me a weird look and followed me. I was ready to rearrange his face but he just wanted to sell me drugs. That's never happened since. Must be something about Geelong. |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Great memories! The worst thing that ever happened to me in Geelong was coming out of a pizza restaurant there and bumping into Joel Selwood coming in. I wasn't down there for the footy but I had an idea that I knew this bloke from somewhere and just couldn't place him. This happens to me from time to time - I have to be polite but non-committal (it could be a former client or it could as easily be someone I cross-examined recently). He offered me his autograph and the penny dropped! I felt obliged to continue being polite, so I thanked him politely and declined. I felt a bit unclean about it all later.
Last edited by Pies4shaw on Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
|
| Post subject: Re: Yep | |
|
| Hiss wrote: | | Interesting that Jock Mchale said Phil Carmen was the greatest player he has ever seen. Given that testimonial , how can anyone question fabulous Phil standing as our best ever player. I would have Carmen as our Senior Coach as soon as Buckley goes . Pies fans would love it. As our coach, he needs to never head butt an umpire . Must self control . |
That is some feat Hiss, considering ol Jock died in 1953, long before Phil even played a game. 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| King Monkey wrote: | Coupla comments about G. Ablett seem to be forgetting that he played the first 5 years of his career on the wing.
Need a fair tank for that.
And wing would be classed as "midfield" in modern speak. |
Yeah, but back then wingers stayed at home on their wing, they didn't go all over the ground just went up and down one side. So there was plenty of time to catch your breath when the ball wasn't in your area.
He could move, but long distance running wasn't his thing he was a burst and power player.
I saw him one day live (not against Collingwood, my kid was playing vic kick at half time) and he led out from FF toward the boundary where I was sitting, with an opposition player running beside him on either side. He must have realised he was heading under the ball so he just stopped dead and threw both arms back, which threw both of the guys holding his arms back on their arse, then just lifted his hands and took the mark uncontested.  Pure brute strength.
Different player to Carman but they were both freaks and I'd find it hard to split them for talent.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Some video of Fab Phil also featuring Stan the Man.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGmedGPVmiw
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
Doc63
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: Newport
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Cam wrote: | | Carmen was a selfish, narcissistic dickhead with ADHD. Cost us far more than he won us. Maybe if he had gone to jail like Krak did it might have been the making of him. Coulda woulda shoulda. 66 games, zero flags, just a destructive being not just in the VFL, but everywhere he went after there too. |
And they were his good points. Should never have been awarded life membership, regardless of the rule that its awarded to all Copeland Trophy winners.
To me, he is on the same level as Carlscum.
_________________
I hold a cup of wisdom, but there is nothing within. |
|
|
|
|
5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
|
| Post subject: | |
|
[quote="Pies4shaw"]Great memories! The worst thing that ever happened to me in Geelong was coming out of a pizza restaurant there and bumping into Joel Selwood coming in. I wasn't down there for the footy but I had an idea that I knew this bloke from somewhere and just couldn't place him. This happens to me from time to time - I have to be polite but non-committal (it could be a former client or it could as easily be someone I cross-examined recently). He offered me his autograph and the penny dropped! I felt obliged to continue being polite, so I thanked him politely and declined. I felt a bit unclean about it all later.[/quote
Did he duck just before you bumped into him? |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Touché. |
|
|
|
|
piedys 
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| jackcass wrote: | | One of the best games I ever watched Ablett play was in '85, he played off a wing at the G and tore us a new one, made Ricky Barham look silly. We won the game, just couldn't stop Ablett. Didn't get to see a lot of Geelong games back in those days so probably not a huge sample to go by. |
Mate your time frame is out, sorry.
in 1985, we played Geelong at Kardinia Park [Easter], and later in June at Victoria Park.
In fact, other than the 1981QF, I doubt we played them at the MCG whilest Barham was listed.
The only real flogging Ablett gave us at the MCG was in 1989, and Gavin Brown pulled out of that selected team, who would have matched him up.
_________________
M I L L A N E 4 2 forever |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
