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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Cam wrote: | | Carmen was a selfish, narcissistic dickhead with ADHD. Cost us far more than he won us. Maybe if he had gone to jail like Krak did it might have been the making of him. Coulda woulda shoulda. 66 games, zero flags, just a destructive being not just in the VFL, but everywhere he went after there too. |
I broadly agree with this. He could turn a game, but he could also go missing for long periods. I recall watching him kick 11 goals one day at Moorabbin in one of the most exciting matches I have ever seen. I think he kicked 5 in the last quarter, from memory. Then the following week, at Victoria Park, he kicked one, having spent the entire day headhunting. Anything might have happened in the 1977 GF, and while we would probably have won with him there, you just never know.
An incredibly frustrating player who wasn't in Daicos's league, in my opinion.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Hiss 
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: Geelong
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| Post subject: Yep | |
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Interesting that Jock Mchale said Phil Carmen was the greatest player he has ever seen. Given that testimonial , how can anyone question fabulous Phil standing as our best ever player. I would have Carmen as our Senior Coach as soon as Buckley goes . Pies fans would love it. As our coach, he needs to never head butt an umpire . Must self control .
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I love this club and I hold anyone in contempt who does not think it is worth fighting for. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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Like Kink, he could have been so, so much more, its annoying how these tools are given the gift to play senior football for Collingwood, and then bugger it up with ego driven prima donna lunacy and gob smacking tom foolery.
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Post subject: Re: Yep | |
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| Hiss wrote: | | Interesting that Jock Mchale said Phil Carmen was the greatest player he has ever seen. Given that testimonial , how can anyone question fabulous Phil standing as our best ever player. I would have Carmen as our Senior Coach as soon as Buckley goes . Pies fans would love it. As our coach, he needs to never head butt an umpire . Must self control . |
That wasn't Jock McHale who said that, Hiss, it was Captain James Cook. I was there. I should know.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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| WhyPhilWhy? wrote: | <------
I can forgive but never forget. |
Yep, me too.
A lot of my thoughts have already been posted by stui, pies4shaw, cam, piedys and pretty much everyone else so I won't bother repeating them.
Phuck it, is all I will add.
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kill for collingwood! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Most. Talented. Footballer. Of. All. Time. Bar. None. |
Yep.
I love Daics and he was a better player for us than Carmen by virtue of the fact that he played 200+ games and wasn't a head case so he achieved a level of consistency Carmen could have only dreamed about.
But when you talk about pure talent and the ability to just do jaw dropping things, Ablett Snr is the only player I've seen in the same level .
Carmen was taller and leaner, KPP size for the day but could play on ball and had a better tank than Ablett.
Ablett was a power athlete, not a big tank but was as strong as a bull and tended toward more brute force against Carmens finesse but both had all the skills plus more.
Freaks don't come along very often.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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By the way, it's Carman not Carmen.  |
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5 from the wing on debut
Joined: 27 May 2016
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It's very hard to compare players from different times, with different playing styles, against each other.
As a youngster I only saw Greening play live on one or two occasions so I cannot comment on how good he was. During his comeback from the O'Dea incident he played in a fathers v sons game at my club. I clearly remember talking to him in the rooms before we ran out but due to the mists of time remember nothing about the actual game, or even which team he played on.
I was caught up in the "Carmania" of 1975. In my memory there has not been since that time a Collingwood player with that much ability, including Daicos. He took the competition by storm that year. The only way to describe him is as a freak. He could play as a forward or as a midfielder, which Ablett Snr. could not do. It was a pity that his physical attributes outweighed the mental ones as he never rose to the 1975 level again.
I have always felt somewhat close to Daicos as I played against him (rather, watched him destroy us) in under 14's then by chance my father had a discussion with his father a few days before Daicos played his first game in the two's so we noticed him in that game. He debuted in the seniors against St Kilda in what was a 178 point victory. A few days later he played for his school and destroyed my school team. I have never seen anyone break out of the centre and kick long torp goals like that before.
Daicos pre injuries was a gun midfielder and afterwards was a gun forward. The feeling was electric whenever he went near the ball. Overall Carman's output was far less than Daicos produced but if Carman could have reproduced that 1975 season on a few occasions people would now be saying that it is ridiculous to even talk of Gary Ablett Snr. in the same breath as Carman. That's what makes it even more frustrating, thinking of what could have been with those Hafey teams if Carman had his head screwed on properly (and if Bernie Quinlan was a part of it too, as he should have been, but don't get me started on that issue).
So, can't say where Greening fits in to the hierarchy. Carman had more ability than Daicos, but Daicos was the better player by a long way.
But, my dad says that as I did not see John Coleman play I don't know what a really freakish player is actually like. |
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piedys
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
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King Monkey
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: On a journey to seek the scriptures of enlightenment....
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Coupla comments about G. Ablett seem to be forgetting that he played the first 5 years of his career on the wing.
Need a fair tank for that.
And wing would be classed as "midfield" in modern speak.
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"I am a great sage, equal of heaven.
Grow stick, grow.
Fly cloud, fly.
Oh you are a dee-mon, I love to fiiight." |
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didick
didick
Joined: 17 Jun 2009
Location: Brisbane
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| 5 from the wing on debut wrote: | | It's very hard to compare players from different times, with different playing styles, against each other. |
I wasn't around to see PC play, but he sounds amazing. A player that can rip an opponent to shreds.
Does it really happen that often nowadays? Doesn't seem to. How would players like PC go in the modern game with the current style? Would their brilliance shine through?
I turned on the Hawks and Port game last night and within two minutes turned it off. So much congestion, too many players around the ball, too much stop starting. I asked my self if the individual brilliance of a player in yesteryear would come through today, and if not, are we be being robbed of entertainment and the thrills of the game?
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"The night is a very dark time for me" Chaz Michael Michaels |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| King Monkey wrote: | Coupla comments about G. Ablett seem to be forgetting that he played the first 5 years of his career on the wing.
Need a fair tank for that.
And wing would be classed as "midfield" in modern speak. |
He certainly played there - whether he was any good at it is a whole different question. I remember going to Kardinia Park in 1984 and watching Abernethy destroy Ablett. They played on each other all day and Bruce ripped him apart, especially in the last quarter - he was simply too fast and too talented for Ablett. I thought Ablett really played mostly forward, rather than wing, from around that time.
There was never anyone who could stop Carman when he turned up to play - his problem was that he beat himself. Carman was much more versatile than Ablett - he played centre, wing, CHF, FF and CHB all to a ridiculously high standard and, in the twilight of his career, second-ruck - it's fair to say that he managed the "Leigh Brown role" a little better than Leigh did - have a look, eg, at his stats against Collingwood in the two 1982 North games.
There is little footage of Carman and that's a terrible shame. One abiding memory I have of him is the stunning mark he took in the scoreboard pocket at the Yarra Falls End in the second game against North in '77. I saw it from the Rush Stand and I simply couldn't believe that someone could jump across the top of a pack like that, without getting a "lift" from someone. The mark was below and to the left of where the TV cameras used to be placed at Vic Park and it didn't look that much on the replay but it remains the single greatest mark I have ever seen (it is possible that the photo on p 33 of Michael Roberts' book "A Century of the Best" is of that mark with Carman on the way down - it was certainly a grab he took on a muddy day). There is a photo of a mark he took against Footscray on p 37 of Roberts' book that gives a bit of a hint of the spring he had. Anyway, he demoralised North that day - he seemed to take about every second Collingwood mark, all over the ground (in fact, the stats show he only took every fourth [!!!] Collingwood mark) and when he wasn't kicking goals himself, he was making them for others.
In that fateful 1977 second-semi, he basically got Collingwood over the line and into the Grand Final against a team that was better than us, full of stars and had much more of the ball on the day. It's all very well for people to criticise him for hitting Tuck along the way but he actually all-but won the flag for Collingwood that day by getting us past our major threat. Collingwood and Hawthorn were the best sides of 1977 (it was quite a shock when Hawthorn lost the prelim to North) and, as I've said previously, the team that was on the park on GF day leading by 27 points at three-quarter time against a side that had only managed 4 goals for the day (and none for about an hour in the middle part) really shouldn't have been looking to the stands for a scapegoat. There were 20 players responsible for that debacle - and Carman wasn't one. |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Post subject: Re: Yep | |
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| Hiss wrote: | | Interesting that Jock Mchale said Phil Carmen was the greatest player he has ever seen. Given that testimonial , how can anyone question fabulous Phil standing as our best ever player. I would have Carmen as our Senior Coach as soon as Buckley goes . Pies fans would love it. As our coach, he needs to never head butt an umpire . Must self control . |
Amazing foresight to leave that note in his last will and testament.
Carmen was 3 years old when Jock fell off the mortal coil. Those playpen speckies must have really left an impact. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | Coupla comments about G. Ablett seem to be forgetting that he played the first 5 years of his career on the wing.
Need a fair tank for that.
And wing would be classed as "midfield" in modern speak. |
He certainly played there - whether he was any good at it is a whole different question. I remember going to Kardinia Park in 1984 and watching Abernethy destroy Ablett. They played on each other all day and Bruce ripped him apart, especially in the last quarter - he was simply too fast and too talented for Ablett. I thought Ablett really played mostly forward, rather than wing, from around that time.
There was never anyone who could stop Carman when he turned up to play - his problem was that he beat himself. Carman was much more versatile than Ablett - he played centre, wing, CHF, FF and CHB all to a ridiculously high standard and, in the twilight of his career, second-ruck - it's fair to say that he managed the "Leigh Brown role" a little better than Leigh did - have a look, eg, at his stats against Collingwood in the two 1982 North games.
There is little footage of Carman and that's a terrible shame. One abiding memory I have of him is the stunning mark he took in the scoreboard pocket at the Yarra Falls End in the second game against North in '77. I saw it from the Rush Stand and I simply couldn't believe that someone could jump across the top of a pack like that, without getting a "lift" from someone. The mark was below and to the left of where the TV cameras used to be placed at Vic Park and it didn't look that much on the replay but it remains the single greatest mark I have ever seen (it is possible that the photo on p 33 of Michael Roberts' book "A Century of the Best" is of that mark with Carman on the way down - it was certainly a grab he took on a muddy day). There is a photo of a mark he took against Footscray on p 37 of Roberts' book that gives a bit of a hint of the spring he had. Anyway, he demoralised North that day - he seemed to take about every second Collingwood mark, all over the ground (in fact, the stats show he only took every fourth [!!!] Collingwood mark) and when he wasn't kicking goals himself, he was making them for others.
In that fateful 1977 second-semi, he basically got Collingwood over the line and into the Grand Final against a team that was better than us, full of stars and had much more of the ball on the day. It's all very well for people to criticise him for hitting Tuck along the way but he actually all-but won the flag for Collingwood that day by getting us past our major threat. Collingwood and Hawthorn were the best sides of 1977 (it was quite a shock when Hawthorn lost the prelim to North) and, as I've said previously, the team that was on the park on GF day leading by 27 points at three-quarter time against a side that had only managed 4 goals for the day (and none for about an hour in the middle part) really shouldn't have been looking to the stands for a scapegoat. There were 20 players responsible for that debacle - and Carman wasn't one. |
One of the best games I ever watched Ablett play was in '85, he played off a wing at the G and tore us a new one, made Ricky Barham look silly. We won the game, just couldn't stop Ablett. Didn't get to see a lot of Geelong games back in those days so probably not a huge sample to go by. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| didick wrote: | | 5 from the wing on debut wrote: | | It's very hard to compare players from different times, with different playing styles, against each other. |
I wasn't around to see PC play, but he sounds amazing. A player that can rip an opponent to shreds.
Does it really happen that often nowadays? Doesn't seem to. How would players like PC go in the modern game with the current style? Would their brilliance shine through?
I turned on the Hawks and Port game last night and within two minutes turned it off. So much congestion, too many players around the ball, too much stop starting. I asked my self if the individual brilliance of a player in yesteryear would come through today, and if not, are we be being robbed of entertainment and the thrills of the game? |
He wouldn't play a key position, nowadays (he was only about Buckley's height) but he'd certainly be the most-talented centreman or ruck-rover at any club. |
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