Losing Interest?
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| PyreneesPie wrote: | | 5 from the wing on debut wrote: | I went to most Pies games in 1976 when we finished on the bottom for the first time. I haven't seen the stats but my memory is that even in that year the crowds were good at Vic Park. In my opinion that is because the culture was different then. We were Collingwood supporters. We supported our club no matter what. My grandfather did it. My father did it. I did it. If you weren't a Collingwood supporter you hated the club. It was tribal . Us against them.
Over the years something has happened. The sport has become professional. That means the players get paid more and change clubs to better their professional careers as would any other employee. It means I am not a fan anymore. I am a revenue unit in a business model The Pies don't have a home ground any more. They have little to differentiate them from any other team. Barracking at the football no longer exists. There is little banter between opposing supporters at games. Games are quite sterile in the outer.
I recall the first game I ever went to. Glenferrie oval, wearing the jumper with Macca's 6 on the back, sitting on my dad's shoulders so that I could see. I was hooked. I also recall the sadness of being at the last game at Vic Park.
My grandfather is long gone and my dad no longer attends games. I continued the tradition by taking my sons to the G for their first game. Nothing to watch before the game. Constant blaring rubbish over the speakers. The game and crowd were both boring & my sons lost interest very quickly. Not one memorable highlight to captivate my boys but that is par for the course with the modern game. It's funny but my boys had interest in the game but by taking them to a game it caused them to lose all interest in it. A decade on they are both very tall, athletic and strong, addicted to their sports but footy is of no interest to them at all. That is not unusual amongst their circle of friends.
The AFL may have achieved its aim of turning supporters into theatre goers but by doing so they have also damaged the game. Why would you keep going to a movie that you do not like?
I will sometimes go to a game and afterwards wonder why I bothered. In 20 years time what would I remember about what I just saw? What was the memorable incident? What was the highlight? Sometimes I will listen to the call of a game on the radio and enjoy it as I picture the game as it once was.
I concede that the skills and speed of the game are far better now than they have ever been. But, I don't think that the game is better. Where have the characters in the game gone? Where are the villains in the opposition? Where is the tribal fervour? Where is the passion? I know where they are. In the history books.
It's makes me so sad to know that the game I grew up with is diminished. For me, and a lot of others, I suspect that this is the real reason for the lack of interest rather than the current performance of the team. |
Just read this great post. Apologies for late response.
I too went to every game when we were wooden spooners. That's just what you did back in those days, if you were a passionate supporter.
Fast forward to now and although I still have a huge passion for the Pies would prefer to watch most games in the comfort of my lounge room. Maybe that though is just old age? 
Another aspect to add to all your valid points is that live vision through TV and internet means that a helluva lot of supporters must watch in relative solitude. |
God that's sad but probably true. I reckon that will be me once my daughter decides not to go with mum anymore. Can't see me fronting up every week on my own.
Some one made the point about looking back and thinking gees was that worth it? And I totally get that. Some of the shit the team has dished up this year, doesn't deserve to have fans sitting in the cold miserable, last week for instance. We left early, maybe 10 min to miss the traffic, usually we just put up with the traffic. Ran in to a little old man, on his own ,all decked out, and I said, pretty miserable performance hey? He says all these years I've never left early, but that performance just did me in. He was on the verge of tears. Sad to see.
I guess I'm lucky I have the satisfaction of time with my 20 year old, and the good fortune to realise how lucky that makes me. But we are both getting fed up. At the Bulldogs game I was pretty disgusted with fans that left. You don't leave your team when they have put everything on the line.
I came close to missing the cats game, any excuse would have done it, for I loathe their fans. So glad Junior really wanted to go! So for this season, we have had 2 weeks where I'll have special memories. The rest of this season, ugh, Foxtel and a home theatre would do it if I had juniors company!
We have our freeze hats for Monday. And we will go to the Freo game, then we miss three as we won't be here, not sure what we will come back to.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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darky the protector
Joined: 06 May 2015
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | I will always love the PIes and will pass away a devoted fan of the Woods, but for me, the game has just lost too much tradition, so that's partly why I have only a three game membership. Things like no Under 19s, no Reserves pre game, just stare at a green oval, with some twit yelling out over the Public address and inane music. Waverley gone, plus setting up these new ridiculous corporate teams like GWS and Gold Coast, one of em should have been established in Tassie, a State that loves its footy, not up on the GC to entertain geriatric white shoe old Victorians living up there. Matthews is right, QLD has no room for the GC, not in a rugby state. Also, how unfair is it if one of these plastic teams wins a flag before Victorian teams like the Dogs, Dees, Saints or even us, after being in the comp for one lousy decade, while other teams have not won a flag in eons of time ?? What if the Giants beat us in a GF, imagine the humiliation of it ??
Yes, I am losing interest, and it has gone on now with me for quite some time, I will always follow the PIes, but the game has declined markedly, and not for the good, far from it actually. sigh. |
Oh, GWS will win a GF before most of us, don't you worry about that. A premiership = top draft picks plus money plus time. GWS will be unstoppable ina few years as the Brions were in 2003, before the league lost interest in them. The blatant rigging of the competition by the AFL in the last fifteen years has been virtually corrupt, andI cannot understand why our club Presidents have accepted it. I suppose they consider it enhances their own personal interests in the club of business elites who dominate the AFL nowadays. |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| think positive wrote: | | PyreneesPie wrote: | | 5 from the wing on debut wrote: | I went to most Pies games in 1976 when we finished on the bottom for the first time. I haven't seen the stats but my memory is that even in that year the crowds were good at Vic Park. In my opinion that is because the culture was different then. We were Collingwood supporters. We supported our club no matter what. My grandfather did it. My father did it. I did it. If you weren't a Collingwood supporter you hated the club. It was tribal . Us against them.
Over the years something has happened. The sport has become professional. That means the players get paid more and change clubs to better their professional careers as would any other employee. It means I am not a fan anymore. I am a revenue unit in a business model The Pies don't have a home ground any more. They have little to differentiate them from any other team. Barracking at the football no longer exists. There is little banter between opposing supporters at games. Games are quite sterile in the outer.
I recall the first game I ever went to. Glenferrie oval, wearing the jumper with Macca's 6 on the back, sitting on my dad's shoulders so that I could see. I was hooked. I also recall the sadness of being at the last game at Vic Park.
My grandfather is long gone and my dad no longer attends games. I continued the tradition by taking my sons to the G for their first game. Nothing to watch before the game. Constant blaring rubbish over the speakers. The game and crowd were both boring & my sons lost interest very quickly. Not one memorable highlight to captivate my boys but that is par for the course with the modern game. It's funny but my boys had interest in the game but by taking them to a game it caused them to lose all interest in it. A decade on they are both very tall, athletic and strong, addicted to their sports but footy is of no interest to them at all. That is not unusual amongst their circle of friends.
The AFL may have achieved its aim of turning supporters into theatre goers but by doing so they have also damaged the game. Why would you keep going to a movie that you do not like?
I will sometimes go to a game and afterwards wonder why I bothered. In 20 years time what would I remember about what I just saw? What was the memorable incident? What was the highlight? Sometimes I will listen to the call of a game on the radio and enjoy it as I picture the game as it once was.
I concede that the skills and speed of the game are far better now than they have ever been. But, I don't think that the game is better. Where have the characters in the game gone? Where are the villains in the opposition? Where is the tribal fervour? Where is the passion? I know where they are. In the history books.
It's makes me so sad to know that the game I grew up with is diminished. For me, and a lot of others, I suspect that this is the real reason for the lack of interest rather than the current performance of the team. |
Just read this great post. Apologies for late response.
I too went to every game when we were wooden spooners. That's just what you did back in those days, if you were a passionate supporter.
Fast forward to now and although I still have a huge passion for the Pies would prefer to watch most games in the comfort of my lounge room. Maybe that though is just old age?
Another aspect to add to all your valid points is that live vision through TV and internet means that a helluva lot of supporters must watch in relative solitude. |
God that's sad but probably true. I reckon that will be me once my daughter decides not to go with mum anymore. Can't see me fronting up every week on my own.
Some one made the point about looking back and thinking gees was that worth it? And I totally get that. Some of the shit the team has dished up this year, doesn't deserve to have fans sitting in the cold miserable, last week for instance. We left early, maybe 10 min to miss the traffic, usually we just put up with the traffic. Ran in to a little old man, on his own ,all decked out, and I said, pretty miserable performance hey? He says all these years I've never left early, but that performance just did me in. He was on the verge of tears. Sad to see.
I guess I'm lucky I have the satisfaction of time with my 20 year old, and the good fortune to realise how lucky that makes me. But we are both getting fed up. At the Bulldogs game I was pretty disgusted with fans that left. You don't leave your team when they have put everything on the line.
I came close to missing the cats game, any excuse would have done it, for I loathe their fans. So glad Junior really wanted to go! So for this season, we have had 2 weeks where I'll have special memories. The rest of this season, ugh, Foxtel and a home theatre would do it if I had juniors company!
We have our freeze hats for Monday. And we will go to the Freo game, then we miss three as we won't be here, not sure what we will come back to. |
Yeh, the Port loss gutted me, I'm so glad I have at least attended one great win this season, v the Cats, man, what a game that was, we walked out on air. ! Its those type of gutsy wins, the great victories, that keep the faith, that keep fans coming back. The dogs loss was perfectly excusable, we just ran outa puff and players. But, the Port loss was very, very poor, I hate and loathe seeing us get belted like that, without a whimper, I would definitely have left early, which I rarely do. I admire your passion, your a real diehard Pies fan, good on yer, you deserve a win on Monday, a cold and gloomy day, fans like you who go week in, week out, deserve a win over the insufferable Deeees and their snobby fair weather barrackers. Go Woods !! 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | PyreneesPie wrote: | | 5 from the wing on debut wrote: | I went to most Pies games in 1976 when we finished on the bottom for the first time. I haven't seen the stats but my memory is that even in that year the crowds were good at Vic Park. In my opinion that is because the culture was different then. We were Collingwood supporters. We supported our club no matter what. My grandfather did it. My father did it. I did it. If you weren't a Collingwood supporter you hated the club. It was tribal . Us against them.
Over the years something has happened. The sport has become professional. That means the players get paid more and change clubs to better their professional careers as would any other employee. It means I am not a fan anymore. I am a revenue unit in a business model The Pies don't have a home ground any more. They have little to differentiate them from any other team. Barracking at the football no longer exists. There is little banter between opposing supporters at games. Games are quite sterile in the outer.
I recall the first game I ever went to. Glenferrie oval, wearing the jumper with Macca's 6 on the back, sitting on my dad's shoulders so that I could see. I was hooked. I also recall the sadness of being at the last game at Vic Park.
My grandfather is long gone and my dad no longer attends games. I continued the tradition by taking my sons to the G for their first game. Nothing to watch before the game. Constant blaring rubbish over the speakers. The game and crowd were both boring & my sons lost interest very quickly. Not one memorable highlight to captivate my boys but that is par for the course with the modern game. It's funny but my boys had interest in the game but by taking them to a game it caused them to lose all interest in it. A decade on they are both very tall, athletic and strong, addicted to their sports but footy is of no interest to them at all. That is not unusual amongst their circle of friends.
The AFL may have achieved its aim of turning supporters into theatre goers but by doing so they have also damaged the game. Why would you keep going to a movie that you do not like?
I will sometimes go to a game and afterwards wonder why I bothered. In 20 years time what would I remember about what I just saw? What was the memorable incident? What was the highlight? Sometimes I will listen to the call of a game on the radio and enjoy it as I picture the game as it once was.
I concede that the skills and speed of the game are far better now than they have ever been. But, I don't think that the game is better. Where have the characters in the game gone? Where are the villains in the opposition? Where is the tribal fervour? Where is the passion? I know where they are. In the history books.
It's makes me so sad to know that the game I grew up with is diminished. For me, and a lot of others, I suspect that this is the real reason for the lack of interest rather than the current performance of the team. |
Just read this great post. Apologies for late response.
I too went to every game when we were wooden spooners. That's just what you did back in those days, if you were a passionate supporter.
Fast forward to now and although I still have a huge passion for the Pies would prefer to watch most games in the comfort of my lounge room. Maybe that though is just old age?
Another aspect to add to all your valid points is that live vision through TV and internet means that a helluva lot of supporters must watch in relative solitude. |
God that's sad but probably true. I reckon that will be me once my daughter decides not to go with mum anymore. Can't see me fronting up every week on my own.
Some one made the point about looking back and thinking gees was that worth it? And I totally get that. Some of the shit the team has dished up this year, doesn't deserve to have fans sitting in the cold miserable, last week for instance. We left early, maybe 10 min to miss the traffic, usually we just put up with the traffic. Ran in to a little old man, on his own ,all decked out, and I said, pretty miserable performance hey? He says all these years I've never left early, but that performance just did me in. He was on the verge of tears. Sad to see.
I guess I'm lucky I have the satisfaction of time with my 20 year old, and the good fortune to realise how lucky that makes me. But we are both getting fed up. At the Bulldogs game I was pretty disgusted with fans that left. You don't leave your team when they have put everything on the line.
I came close to missing the cats game, any excuse would have done it, for I loathe their fans. So glad Junior really wanted to go! So for this season, we have had 2 weeks where I'll have special memories. The rest of this season, ugh, Foxtel and a home theatre would do it if I had juniors company!
We have our freeze hats for Monday. And we will go to the Freo game, then we miss three as we won't be here, not sure what we will come back to. |
Yeh, the Port loss gutted me, I'm so glad I have at least attended one great win this season, v the Cats, man, what a game that was, we walked out on air. ! Its those type of gutsy wins, the great victories, that keep the faith, that keep fans coming back. The dogs loss was perfectly excusable, we just ran outa puff and players. But, the Port loss was very, very poor, I hate and loathe seeing us get belted like that, without a whimper, I would definitely have left early, which I rarely do. I admire your passion, your a real diehard Pies fan, good on yer, you deserve a win on Monday, a cold and gloomy day, fans like you who go week in, week out, deserve a win over the insufferable Deeees and their snobby fair weather barrackers. Go Woods !! |
Cheers mate, thanks , I'll give a yell for you xxxx
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Big Dan
Joined: 12 Jun 2006
Location: The Outside World
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"A LOT of this is fixed by winning of course, I'm not naive to not think that. Right now though, this is a bland club, with bland players, and a bland identity. There's no personality, no zip to it."
Never a truer word spoken.
It's hard watching this team at the moment. When they lose, Bulldogs game aside, there is nothing else to get you going. No flair, no mongrel just bland. Same goes for the crowd. No noise, no passion - if you do then you find yourself turfed out. Add the artificial "traditions" designed to get the crowd going - if these are genuine they don't need a guy on a mic trying to gee you up.
Website is even worse. Bland, bland, bland.
I always loved going to the footy (AFL), but the last 3 years has sapped most of what I thought was an endless reserve of passion. Funnily enough though, I find myself being drawn more and more to the VFL, where previously I had no interest. |
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thompsoc
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Big Dan wrote: | "A LOT of this is fixed by winning of course, I'm not naive to not think that. Right now though, this is a bland club, with bland players, and a bland identity. There's no personality, no zip to it."
Never a truer word spoken.
It's hard watching this team at the moment. When they lose, Bulldogs game aside, there is nothing else to get you going. No flair, no mongrel just bland. Same goes for the crowd. No noise, no passion - if you do then you find yourself turfed out. Add the artificial "traditions" designed to get the crowd going - if these are genuine they don't need a guy on a mic trying to gee you up.
Website is even worse. Bland, bland, bland.
I always loved going to the footy (AFL), but the last 3 years has sapped most of what I thought was an endless reserve of passion. Funnily enough though, I find myself being drawn more and more to the VFL, where previously I had no interest. |
Well written.
In the last few years I have probably gone to more VFL games than AFL.
That is strange.
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we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest. |
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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | makri wrote: | | WarrenerraW wrote: | | My fondest memory of waverley park was the day mick mcguane kicked goal of the year against the scum. |
The nine bounces goal?? This was at the MCG. Last time we played Carlton at Waverly was either round 22/23 in 1992. |
MY all time Waverly memory was also v the scum, my sons footy coach was a one eyed blue, so I bet him a six pack on the game. Anyway, we smashed them, but I will never,ever forget Daicos goal from the boundary line, scoreboard end, against tom alvin. Alvin had him fenced in, right on the boundary line, somehow, some how, Daics dodged him a bit, and screwed the ball right around on an impossible angle, it bounced into the square, and bounced right thru, we went nuts, apeshit, it made us 9 goals too 2 at half time, and we coasted home.  |
Really? He did that?
Doesn't sound like Daicos....
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"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Yes he did, didn't he. |
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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| Mountains Magpie wrote: | | kickit2me wrote: | The game changed when South Melbourne were forced north, but it was still tribal. It changed even more when the West Coast Eagles and the Brisbane Bears were introduced into the comp in 1987, but it was still tribal. But once we removed Victoria Park, Windy Hil, Morabbin, the Western Oval, Arden Street, Princes Park and added 3 more interstate clubs, 2 SA teams and a second WA team, that tribalism was gone. State of Origin was gone. The SANFL and WAFL became just a shadow of their former selves. The interstate hate became a watered down version, as did local rivalries.
But the biggest change was introducing the Suns and Giants. This was the corporatation of footy at it's finest. By now the AFL didn't care about specatator numbers, as long as the jewel in the crown, TV rights, earned them megabucks, they were on a winner.
Oh how I long for the days of 12 clubs, all Victorian, and a radio cross 'around the grounds' that gave you 5 other scores.
Those were the days. |
Growing up in Sydney, we had the same setup prior to 1982. A 12 team comp, 22 H&A rounds, each team with their own ground, healthy competitions in Qld, Newcastle & Wollongong. NSW country was a huge nursery.
In 1982 two new teams were admitted. Illawarra was a given. Canberra was only to block the VFL. Dumb decision. In 1988 Brisbane and another Qld club plus Newcastle admitted, the latter should've been admitted with Illawarra, a real no brainer.
Only when superleague blew up was the tribal side of the game destroyed. NRL bears little resemblance to rugby league. AFL is heading the same way IMHO. It's a long way from Aussie Rules even in the 1990s. Tuck's comments on the modern game were very interesting on Footy Flashbacks on Sunday.
Too corporate, way too much money, gambling companies (shouldn't Ladbrokes actually be Brokelads?) not helping in the slightest (my thoughts, not Tuck's).
Yep, whilst it's easy to say "nostalgia aint what it used to be", I think something very vital has been lost in Australia's two traditionally largest football codes. Soul? Passion? Humanity?
MM |
Green machine supporters are the most passionate in the NRL, not sure what your referring to there
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"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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Looking at our fixture and the form of teams, we might only win one more game for 2016 - against GCS in Rd 23.
All of a sudden, the game against Freo is no certainty and Carlton seem to be travelling OK despite the loss today. GWS will slaughter us as will Adelaide, WCE, Bulldogs, Hawthorn and North.
Could be in for some pretty small crowds, but the upside, tix prices should be cheap.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ i will say it again after the GWS demolition of Sydney today. The AFL has become so rigged through COLA and draft concessions for non-Melbourne teams that I think it should be disestablished and begun again, in the interests of the teams and supporters whose history and present contributions sustain its mystique and viability.
I think we can be a force in 2017 and 2018, but even then i think it is unlikely that will be able to defeat a super-side which has been stuffed with three or four years of top draft picks and salary cap allowances. This is a league for moneyed intersts, not for mug supporters. I will stay interested because it is Collingwood, but less so than i would if the competiton were even-handed and fair.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ i will say it again after the GWS demolition of Sydney today. The AFL has become so rigged through COLA and draft concessions for non-Melbourne teams that I think it should be disestablished and begun again, in the interests of the teams and supporters whose history and present contributions sustain its mystique and viability.
I think we can be a force in 2017 and 2018, but even then i think it is unlikely that will be able to defeat a super-side which has been stuffed with three or four years of top draft picks and salary cap allowances. This is a league for moneyed intersts, not for mug supporters. I will stay interested because it is Collingwood, but less so than i would if the competiton were even-handed and fair. |
Started with the brissy threepeat, Essendon the first club to pay, then us. And then the swans free ride, all bets off on the field, and a full forward who plays the week after slugging someone. It's just bullshit.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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regan is true fullback
Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Location: Granville. nsw
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| Quote: | | Canberra was only to block the VFL. Dumb decision |
Canberra was actually an accident of history, like the Moama Country Club. Pokies were banned in Canberra at the time, but not in Queanbeyan, 8 miles away across the NSW border. As a result the Queanbeyan Leagues Club became the only pokie palace in the district, with more members than the entire population of Queanbeyan City. The upshot was that the Queanbeyan Blues Rugby League team became too powerful for the rest, as was the Monaro District team. So when it came time to expand the Sydney comp, it was only natural to bring a side in from Canberra district, playing out of Seiffert oval Queanbeyan!
The VFL couldn't run a chook raffle at the time, and the local comp, the ACTAFL, was very Canberra-centric, and neither could see the riches dangling in front of them just across the border.
The VFL's experiment with expansion, the Sydney Swans, was the inspiration for the Sydney comp to expand, first to Wollongong and Canberra, then Brisbane and Newcastle. |
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Mountains Magpie
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then
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| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | | Mountains Magpie wrote: | | kickit2me wrote: | The game changed when South Melbourne were forced north, but it was still tribal. It changed even more when the West Coast Eagles and the Brisbane Bears were introduced into the comp in 1987, but it was still tribal. But once we removed Victoria Park, Windy Hil, Morabbin, the Western Oval, Arden Street, Princes Park and added 3 more interstate clubs, 2 SA teams and a second WA team, that tribalism was gone. State of Origin was gone. The SANFL and WAFL became just a shadow of their former selves. The interstate hate became a watered down version, as did local rivalries.
But the biggest change was introducing the Suns and Giants. This was the corporatation of footy at it's finest. By now the AFL didn't care about specatator numbers, as long as the jewel in the crown, TV rights, earned them megabucks, they were on a winner.
Oh how I long for the days of 12 clubs, all Victorian, and a radio cross 'around the grounds' that gave you 5 other scores.
Those were the days. |
Growing up in Sydney, we had the same setup prior to 1982. A 12 team comp, 22 H&A rounds, each team with their own ground, healthy competitions in Qld, Newcastle & Wollongong. NSW country was a huge nursery.
In 1982 two new teams were admitted. Illawarra was a given. Canberra was only to block the VFL. Dumb decision. In 1988 Brisbane and another Qld club plus Newcastle admitted, the latter should've been admitted with Illawarra, a real no brainer.
Only when superleague blew up was the tribal side of the game destroyed. NRL bears little resemblance to rugby league. AFL is heading the same way IMHO. It's a long way from Aussie Rules even in the 1990s. Tuck's comments on the modern game were very interesting on Footy Flashbacks on Sunday.
Too corporate, way too much money, gambling companies (shouldn't Ladbrokes actually be Brokelads?) not helping in the slightest (my thoughts, not Tuck's).
Yep, whilst it's easy to say "nostalgia aint what it used to be", I think something very vital has been lost in Australia's two traditionally largest football codes. Soul? Passion? Humanity?
MM |
Green machine supporters are the most passionate in the NRL, not sure what your referring to there |
I honestly couldn't tell you. I haven't followed rugby league for many years.
That said, what else do Canberrans have? The Brumbies, and...........
MM
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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I given up on the AFL Season this year
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