 |
|
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | There's no way Cloke should be regarded as one of our great forwards. That tag belongs to Coventry, Todd, Weideman, McKenna and Carman. These guys genuinely won games off their own boot and delivered under pressure. Cloke has been a serviceable player but his shocking goal kicking has broken the hearts of too many fans and lost us too many important games - including the first 2010 Grand Final - for him ever to be regarded as great. Now he is in serious decline and we should sell him at the first opportunity. He had enormous talent, but never quite delivered as he should have. I blame Demir. |
Is Ant considered a great? |
Yes, of course he is. Anthony played nearly as many games and kicked nearly as many goals as Cloke has done. 
| RudeBoy wrote: | | There's no way Cloke should be regarded as one of our great forwards. That tag belongs to Coventry, Todd, Weideman, McKenna and Carman. These guys genuinely won games off their own boot and delivered under pressure. Cloke has been a serviceable player but his shocking goal kicking has broken the hearts of too many fans and lost us too many important games - including the first 2010 Grand Final - for him ever to be regarded as great. Now he is in serious decline and we should sell him at the first opportunity. He had enormous talent, but never quite delivered as he should have. I blame Demir. |
I said CHFs. Your list includes 1 who played more than 50 games there.
Go back and try to respond to this from my previous post with an open mind:
"He is one of the top 3 centre-half forwards that ever wore a Collingwood jumper (probably the best - he's certainly played way more games there for the Club than anyone else of any significance - but I'm leaving it open for you to think about who is on your short-list)."
I take it that you have the Weed ahead of him. That's fine - you're welcome to your own hagiography, even if means preferring a bloke who averaged almost 1.5 goals per game to one who averages almost 2. But, really, as to the others - Carman is my favourite player of all-time and I couldn't find it in my heart to rate him ahead of Cloke on about 40 games at CHF (of 66 played for us); McKenna and Coventry were FFs (although I can recall watching McKenna playing at CHF a couple of times and it's fair to say that if you were picking a CHF, Travis would easily get the nod); and off-hand, I didn't see enough of Todd to remember where he played all of his footy but I thought his two or three good years at Collingwood were as FF. |
|
|
|
 |
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
|
|
|
|
Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| First thing I thought was cap relief. |
|
|
|
|
Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
|
| Post subject: | |
|
He's always been a flakey bastard, IMO if there's a willing taker we deal, I think the best we could hope for is to swap Cloke and our second rounder for a first rounder.
IMO he needs a fresh start, if he finds form at a different club it doesn't mean he was going to find it with us.
_________________
Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
|
|
|
|
What'sinaname 
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Bob Sugar wrote: | He's always been a flakey bastard, IMO if there's a willing taker we deal, I think the best we could hope for is to swap Cloke and our second rounder for a first rounder.
IMO he needs a fresh start, if he finds form at a different club it doesn't mean he was going to find it with us. |
Just like his Dad |
|
|
|
|
Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| What'sinaname wrote: | | Bob Sugar wrote: | He's always been a flakey bastard, IMO if there's a willing taker we deal, I think the best we could hope for is to swap Cloke and our second rounder for a first rounder.
IMO he needs a fresh start, if he finds form at a different club it doesn't mean he was going to find it with us. |
Just like his Dad |
I don't think Damir had form slumps like Travis, he was a pretty consistent player throughout his career iirc, very underrated player IMO.
_________________
Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
|
|
|
|
Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Just like his son. |
|
|
|
|
jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Just like his son. |
Touche! |
|
|
|
|
Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
|
| Post subject: | |
|
If there is a bigger indictment against the use of football stats than this one, I have yet to hear or see it.
The most ridiculous statement I have ever read on Nicks, and that is saying something
_________________
"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
|
|
|
|
RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Trav lost as many games as he won.
Also, I've compared him to our great key forwards, whether they were full forwards of centee half forwards, since the modern game has obliterated the distinction. Travis has played as many games from the goal square as he has beyond the 50 metre arc.
At the end of the day, we're all entitled to rate the players according to how we've perceived them. As for me, I have always viewed Cloke as being a very shaky conveyance who has never inspired confidence. Other players like the Weed, Carman, McKenna, even Daics in a forward pocket, lifted the performance of the whole team and were inspirational. Poor old Clokey always promised to deliver much more than he ever did. His errant kicking for goal regularly deflated the team. Considering the phenomenal amount of ball delivery directed his way, it is incredible that he only ever kicked 7 goals once in his entire career. Don't get me wrong, he was a good player, but personally I'll never consider him one of our greats. Others, obviously consider him differently, which is their prerogative. |
|
|
|
|
E
Joined: 05 May 2010
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: |
If there is a bigger indictment against the use of football stats than this one, I have yet to hear or see it.
The most ridiculous statement I have ever read on Nicks, and that is saying something |
I think the comparison with Anthony Rocca is a fair one. At their best (in their prime), they were both an irresistible force. Both left us wanting more from them. No doubt both of them are in the discussion of best CHF for Collingwood (certainly in my lifetime).
Neither are in the discussion with Wayne Carey, but being compared unfavorably to arguably the GOAT is still impressive.
Interestingly, the stats highlight one of the main reasons Cloke isn't in the Carey discussion (even though in his prime, Cloke was a beast). The fact is that Carey averaged nearly a goal a game more than Cloke. If Cloke had a career average of @.8 instead of 1.8 I think he would be remembered a lot more favorably than he is. As others have noted, this statistical gap might almost be entirely explained by his poor kicking (as he seemed to have almost the same amount of footy as the Duck).
Anyway, he is being unfairly judged on this forum by his recent record (is it a slump or is it simply decline). Cloke should be remembered for the period 2007-2014 when he was very consistent and certainly A-Grade!
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
|
|
|
|
RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
The very fact that we can debate Cloke's worth is evidence to me that he is not one of our greats. At his best, for at most 2 years, he was a very good player. For most of his career he has been a good player, but now he is not even in our best 22. For his age, he should be at the peak of his powers and dominating the competition.
No-one debates the greatness of Coventry, Todd, Wiedeman, McKenna, Carman or Daicos. That's why they are all greats of our club. |
|
|
|
|
Presti35 
Dick Lee for Legend Status
Joined: 05 Oct 2001
Location: London, England
|
| Post subject: | |
|
He's hardly missed a game in ten years. In fact at 29 years of age and 237 games played, he was on track to become our 3rd 300 game player. Or at least 3rd or 4th games played.
As we know, he's an All-Australian and a Premiership Player. Sadly, he has never won a Coleman Medal.
I keep thinking to myself that maybe he could do a Richo and almost win a Brownlow, but its hard to see that right now.
With the drop in payment, I think it'd be silly to move him. But if someone offered something too good to refuse, you'd take it. Honestly though, we should be talking about dumping Jesse White before anything else.
_________________
A Goal Saved Is 2 Goals Earned! |
|
|
|
|
E
Joined: 05 May 2010
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| RudeBoy wrote: | The very fact that we can debate Cloke's worth is evidence to me that he is not one of our greats. At his best, for at most 2 years, he was a very good player. For most of his career he has been a good player, but now he is not even in our best 22. For his age, he should be at the peak of his powers and dominating the competition.
No-one debates the greatness of Coventry, Todd, Wiedeman, McKenna, Carman or Daicos. That's why they are all greats of our club. |
That is rubbish. in the twilight of each of their careers, i am certain that their worth was debated. No-one debated Cloke's worth during his first 220 games. the debate then was whether he was the best power forward in the league.
After he retires, we will all put the rose colored glasses back on and remember his great days and put him right alongside those others you mention.
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
|
|
|
|
Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Still hoping he can do a Richo and turn himself into something else for the last couple of years of his career. I think his days at CHF are done, and stay at home FF who wrestles instead of leading doesn't work as well now.
Big guys seem to fall over really fast when the end comes and there's nowhere to hide as a KPP. |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
