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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: Our hierarchy of interest |  |
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A lot of us have been emotionally affected by the events in Paris yesterday. The senselessness of it all, the nightmarish details of how the massacres were carried out, the heartbreaking witness accounts, the knowledge that it could have been any of us ... it's only human to be shaken by it and to want to express solidarity with the people of France.
And yet, we know that these events do not only occur in Europe and North America. A couple of days ago, 43 people were killed in a similar attack in Lebanon. 50-80 were killed in an attack on a Shia mosque in Bangladesh less than a month ago. These attacks did not get front page treatment in the newspapers, and weren't given rolling live coverage on TV. The Sydney Opera House was not lit up in the colours of Lebanon or Bangladesh. Those of us who heard about these attacks would not have spent more than 5 minutes thinking about them, and I dare say the majority of us didn't even hear about them at all.
Why is this? Do we simply care more about the lives of French people, and if so, why? Is it because they look like us? Is it that they share a similar culture with us? Or is it about media coverage? Would we have been affected equally by the Lebanese or Bangladeshi bombings if they had received the same coverage, with the same live updates, personal stories and faces of victims? Or are we incapable of devoting such empathy to strange, 'foreign' people? Is there something quite fundamental in human nature causing this?
That this phenomenon - this hierarchy of interest - exists is undeniable. Knowing that, is there anything we can do about it? And would our world be a better place if we could?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Not at the present time. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Post subject: Re: Our hierarchy of interest | |
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| David wrote: | A lot of us have been emotionally affected by the events in Paris yesterday. The senselessness of it all, the nightmarish details of how the massacres were carried out, the heartbreaking witness accounts, the knowledge that it could have been any of us ... it's only human to be shaken by it and to want to express solidarity with the people of France.
And yet, we know that these events do not only occur in Europe and North America. A couple of days ago, 43 people were killed in a similar attack in Lebanon. 50-80 were killed in an attack on a Shia mosque in Bangladesh less than a month ago. These attacks did not get front page treatment in the newspapers, and weren't given rolling live coverage on TV. The Sydney Opera House was not lit up in the colours of Lebanon or Bangladesh. Those of us who heard about these attacks would not have spent more than 5 minutes thinking about them, and I dare say the majority of us didn't even hear about them at all.
Why is this? Do we simply care more about the lives of French people, and if so, why? Is it because they look like us? Is it that they share a similar culture with us? Or is it about media coverage? Would we have been affected equally by the Lebanese or Bangladeshi bombings if they had received the same coverage, with the same live updates, personal stories and faces of victims? Or are we incapable of devoting such empathy to strange, 'foreign' people? Is there something quite fundamental in human nature causing this?
That this phenomenon - this hierarchy of interest - exists is undeniable. Knowing that, is there anything we can do about it? And would our world be a better place if we could? |
Is this really surprising ? France is an advanced, pluralist Western society much like ours, and what happens on the streets of Paris today is likely to happen on the streets of Sydney or London in the months ahead. What happens on the streets of Dacca or Beirut is rarely a signal that our children might not come home from a day out in our cities.
The broader point is that the first priority of any nation and any government must be to defend its own people from external and internal threats. The pursuit of that national interest should not be subordinated to the utopian fantasies of universal brother and sisterhood, or of chauvinistically exporting democracy to peoples whose history makes them unready for it.
For too long this basic responsibility of protecting your own has been submerged by feelings of sentimental principle. It is time for older values of reason, scepticism, patriotism, caution and responsibility to reassert themselves. Through these, I think we have the best chance of advancing human welfare and liberty right across the world.
What happens on the streets of Beirut is sad, but it is not very germane to our interests. What happens - what has happened - on the streets of New York, Paris, London, Madrid and Brussels is very much so.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Because when I came out of Etihad today I had a feeling of unease that I was in a perfect place for an act much like Paris, and in a city that has had terror arrests in the past. France is culturally close enough to us to feel a sense of familiarity and brotherhood. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | | Because when I came out of Etihad today I had a feeling of unease that I was in a perfect place for an act much like Paris, and in a city that has had terror arrests in the past. France is culturally close enough to us to feel a sense of familiarity and brotherhood. |
So you attended the annual non-violent collective bake-a-thon. What did you cook?
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: Re: Our hierarchy of interest | |
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | A lot of us have been emotionally affected by the events in Paris yesterday. The senselessness of it all, the nightmarish details of how the massacres were carried out, the heartbreaking witness accounts, the knowledge that it could have been any of us ... it's only human to be shaken by it and to want to express solidarity with the people of France.
And yet, we know that these events do not only occur in Europe and North America. A couple of days ago, 43 people were killed in a similar attack in Lebanon. 50-80 were killed in an attack on a Shia mosque in Bangladesh less than a month ago. These attacks did not get front page treatment in the newspapers, and weren't given rolling live coverage on TV. The Sydney Opera House was not lit up in the colours of Lebanon or Bangladesh. Those of us who heard about these attacks would not have spent more than 5 minutes thinking about them, and I dare say the majority of us didn't even hear about them at all.
Why is this? Do we simply care more about the lives of French people, and if so, why? Is it because they look like us? Is it that they share a similar culture with us? Or is it about media coverage? Would we have been affected equally by the Lebanese or Bangladeshi bombings if they had received the same coverage, with the same live updates, personal stories and faces of victims? Or are we incapable of devoting such empathy to strange, 'foreign' people? Is there something quite fundamental in human nature causing this?
That this phenomenon - this hierarchy of interest - exists is undeniable. Knowing that, is there anything we can do about it? And would our world be a better place if we could? |
Is this really surprising ? France is an advanced, pluralist Western society much like ours, and what happens on the streets of Paris today is likely to happen on the streets of Sydney or London in the months ahead. What happens on the streets of Dacca or Beirut is rarely a signal that our children might not come home from a day out in our cities.
The broader point is that the first priority of any nation and any government must be to defend its own people from external and internal threats. The pursuit of that national interest should not be subordinated to the utopian fantasies of universal brother and sisterhood, or of chauvinistically exporting democracy to peoples whose history makes them unready for it.
For too long this basic responsibility of protecting your own has been submerged by feelings of sentimental principle. It is time for older values of reason, scepticism, patriotism, caution and responsibility to reassert themselves. Through these, I think we have the best chance of advancing human welfare and liberty right across the world.
What happens on the streets of Beirut is sad, but it is not very germane to our interests. What happens - what has happened - on the streets of New York, Paris, London, Madrid and Brussels is very much so. |
There's an interesting question of 'we' in all of this. Are we not a multicultural society? Don't we have many thousands of Australians hailing from Lebanon and Bangladesh? Who is to say that they feel events in Beirut or Dhaka less keenly than those in Paris or London? And for those of us who do, perhaps it is complacency on our part to think that atrocities committed over there can have no connection to atrocities that might conceivably occur here.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Not complicated, surely - "we" is Australian citizens, in this context, whatever your origin. And that of course includes existing (NB not aspiring) Australian Muslims. It's what happens or will happen on the streets of Melbourne or Sydney that matters first. Adelaide, well, fair enough, not so much 
Complacency ? Of course there can be a connection - it's just far less intrinsic than what happens in the capitals of countries which share our heritage and values. Analyse it, and decide. But the news will follow the direct likelihood. And the direct likelihood is that our streets are more unsafe because of what happened in Paris than what happened in Beirut or Bangladesh.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Because when I came out of Etihad today I had a feeling of unease that I was in a perfect place for an act much like Paris, and in a city that has had terror arrests in the past. France is culturally close enough to us to feel a sense of familiarity and brotherhood. |
So you attended the annual non-violent collective bake-a-thon. What did you cook? |
Is there a reason for this post apart from stirring up trouble?
I get exactly where wokko is coming from. When 9/11 happened, we were in Qld. Flying home, out of a half empty (an airline went broke that week too) airport, the extra security members, getting on a plane with my two very young daughters, only 48 hours after all that went down, I still remember my legs feeling like jelly, and I still remember all the tear streaked races when we touched down in Melbourne... Utter relief....
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Compare it to the mass shootings in America.
If there is a drive by shooting and a gang member gets killed in Harlem, you don't hear about it. In Melbourne it's at least page 2.
I can't believe you are asking the question, it's so obvious.
I also think it's great that Facebook etc are highlighting that this has happened in Lebanon etc too. May the whole world make a stand against terrorists, terrorism.
Nobody should have to live in fear of getting blown up, at a wedding, doing their daly job, whatever, no where in the world.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Because when I came out of Etihad today I had a feeling of unease that I was in a perfect place for an act much like Paris, and in a city that has had terror arrests in the past. France is culturally close enough to us to feel a sense of familiarity and brotherhood. |
So you attended the annual non-violent collective bake-a-thon. What did you cook? |
I attended a legally sanctioned, amicable contest between consenting adults. There was no security in the crowd at all and no violence other than the controlled type in the Octagon. I fail to see what the event WAS as being relevant to the fact that the first thing my mate says when we come out it "Keep an eye out, this would be the perfect place to hit, no escape routes and a stampede.". I was thinking the same thing. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | Because when I came out of Etihad today I had a feeling of unease that I was in a perfect place for an act much like Paris, and in a city that has had terror arrests in the past. France is culturally close enough to us to feel a sense of familiarity and brotherhood. |
So you attended the annual non-violent collective bake-a-thon. What did you cook? |
I attended a legally sanctioned, amicable contest between consenting adults. There was no security in the crowd at all and no violence other than the controlled type in the Octagon. I fail to see what the event WAS as being relevant to the fact that the first thing my mate says when we come out it "Keep an eye out, this would be the perfect place to hit, no escape routes and a stampede.". I was thinking the same thing. |
I've thought exactly the same thing at the ANZAC day game.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Yep me too.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | Compare it to the mass shootings in America.
If there is a drive by shooting and a gang member gets killed in Harlem, you don't hear about it. In Melbourne it's at least page 2.
I can't believe you are asking the question, it's so obvious. |
There's a big difference between a single shooting and a terrorist attack that kills dozens. In fact, I'd argue that we do get significant coverage of American mass shootings, despite the fact that they are relatively commonplace. So, I'm not sure what your explanation is (it doesn't seem obvious to me), but to me it seems clear that we are much more invested in the lives of people from certain countries and that it's not just about media representation. I think it shows how we dehumanise people we don't identify with.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:56 am; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| If there ever is, I will let you know. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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And there I was in Boots pharmacy yesterday trying to strike up a conversation with a shy Muslim bloke over beards as I've got one thickening up for winter. Poor bloke was shocked at having a stranger who was not wearing a security uniform smile and take an interest in him!
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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