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The great Travis Cloke debate

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piedys Taurus

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Joined: 04 Sep 2003
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:08 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Good Trav, more of that effort please.
Sort those Carlton flogs out for us next week eh; there's a good chap...

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Jezza Taurus

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Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 1:48 am
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He was much better tonight. Deserves another game for stability to the team more than anything else.
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Pie-For-Life 



Joined: 24 Mar 2016


PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:56 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

That was better from Cloke last night, hope he gets even better, up and running he is important to us. If he cant sustain at the level needed then unfortunately there wont be a place for him in the team, sad but reality. We are better with Cloke playing and contributing.
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HAL 

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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:58 pm
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I thought it was too.
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BEAMER09 



Joined: 10 Apr 2009


PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 4:50 pm
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seriously if Cloke get's dropped, that will be a pathetic move.
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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 5:01 pm
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BEAMER09 wrote:
seriously if Cloke get's dropped, that will be a pathetic move.


His problem is that 4 doesn't go into 3. Darcy Moore must return and Cox is now our focal point in goals. So Cloke is now in competition with White for the 3rd marking forward role. White has been more consistent, but was a bit quiet last week. I'm just glad I'm not a selector.
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matrix10 



Joined: 17 May 2009


PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:20 pm
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Good to see Trav supporting the VFL boys yesterday.

Thought Friday night saw the best and worst of Trav.

He is clearly a confidence player- up and about early- but a few missed passes from teammates seemed to piss him off (and rightly so!)
His attack on the ball during the second and third was a bit timid.
That missed shot in the third when we needed to steady reminded me of how frustrating he can be
Ripper goal in the last will likely do his confidence the world of good.

Good to see Trav supporting the VFL boys yesterday- told him I loved him- hoping he feels the love!!
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RudeBoy 



Joined: 28 Nov 2005


PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:23 pm
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matrix10 wrote:
Good to see Trav supporting the VFL boys yesterday.

Thought Friday night saw the best and worst of Trav.

He is clearly a confidence player- up and about early- but a few missed passes from teammates seemed to piss him off (and rightly so!)
His attack on the ball during the second and third was a bit timid.
That missed shot in the third when we needed to steady reminded me of how frustrating he can be
Ripper goal in the last will likely do his confidence the world of good.

Good to see Trav supporting the VFL boys yesterday- told him I loved him- hoping he feels the love!!


He may yet find himself playing alongside the those VFL boys again this week.
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Sir Alan of Didak Virgo



Joined: 06 Apr 2008
Location: Pascoe Vale South

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:26 pm
Post subject: Travis Cloke...our most expendable key position forward???Reply with quote

Compare the modern-day Trav (of the last couple of years) to the following players on our list:

Cox - Taller, better kick at goal, bona-fide second ruckman. His additional height gives him an advantage in contested marking situations. More upside.

White - Far more mobile, creating a potential miss-match. Does the opposition play a smaller, agile player on him or a bigger, slower one? With Howe + Reid down back, he's become relevant again. Like Adam Goodes, he actually spent the early part of his career as a mobile 1st ruckman at Sydney, so he’s at least competent in that area also.

Moore – Our future. Another player who is taller, a better kick and if worse comes to worse, can also provide a chop out in the ruck. Far better work rate and far more upside.

Gault – On the rookie list and earning $600,000 per year less than Trav in 2016. Retain this guy as a back-up and with the Cloke cash we could land a very good and good player (say a David Swallow/Lachie Hansen type and a Majak Daw/Brendan Whitecross type).

Cloke’s main issue is that at 195cm, he doesn’t have the ability to go in to the ruck like the 200-210cm players can. He isn’t kicking more goals than them, nor providing any more assists. He doesn’t have the work rate of other key forward contemporaries his height like Franklin, J.J Kennedy and J.Reiwoldt. He doesn’t have the tank or gut running ability of an N.Reiwoldt to be able to play on the wing for large parts of a game. Casboult sticks twice as many marks and was the reason Carlton beat us earlier on in the season. T.Walker is a born leader who kicks clutch 60 metre goals. J.Cameron is a gun, just like T.Lynch at Gold Coast. Jarryd Waite has won North 3 games off his own boot this year. Trav has not won us a game off his outstanding performance in a long time. Franklin aside, Trav is on MORE COIN THAN ALL THE PLAYERS MENTIONED ABOVE. Franklin will probably win the Coleman. Trav might kick 25 goals for the year.

I simply cannot see the modern-day Trav getting a game when Cox, White and Moore are all fit. With the skill set he brings to the table, he really needs to kick a minimum of 3 goals a game to justify a spot in the team. He plays way too many games where he kicks 0-2, predominantly because he misses easy shots. Now that his contested marking numbers have deteriorated, those missed set shots have never hurt him or the team more. It’s a numbers game and the brutal reality is that Trav’s numbers no longer stack up against our other alternatives.

It’s up to him to make himself relevant again. He’ll never be a ruckman, he’ll never be a wingman and he’ll never, ever, be a defender. He needs to be a forward who takes 2-3 more marks than he is at the moment, has 2 more shots at goal per game, has 1 more goal assist per game and converts at 60-65%. To do that, he needs to become fitter in the mind and body, working twice as hard on and off the field in the twilight years of his career. If not, the game has simply moved past him.

I for one hope we don’t trade him, but I have a feeling we might. If Wyatt kicks on in his development like big Mason has (as a forward/ruckman), there’s yet another player on peanuts who we can call upon if necessary. Witts in the only genuine 1st ruckman back-up to Grundy - making him yet another player of less talent, but more intrinsic value - in the overall shape of our list, than Clokey.

Be interested to hear people’s thoughts. Is he the most expendable of the lot? He certainly ain’t worth the $800,000 he’s on, but is he even worth $400,000? Can Clokey get back and command a position as the go-to man in our team?

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Last edited by Sir Alan of Didak on Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:55 am; edited 3 times in total
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inxs88 



Joined: 17 Aug 2014


PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:44 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Great post mate. His shortcomings in adapting to the modern game are hurting him. Liked his efforts the other night but his dropping of two simple marks with hands out fumbling were concerning.

If he was dropped again this week, I would think he may be shattered and drop his bundle. Rather have Cloke play than Nathan Brown. May force a structural re change with White going down back.

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qldmagpie67 



Joined: 18 Dec 2008


PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:04 am
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Cloke is at the crossroads for sure. He was never dropped because he wasn't kicking goals or kicking them accurately he was dropped purely for poor work rate and not meeting team standards in regards to efforts and second efforts.
The other night was as good as he's played in some time. He showed effort got to contests he took marks yes not all but most but most important he showed great desire
Next year he's on around $400k as he triggered he's last year but at a reduced salary. So at $400k he's affordable.
Cox Moore Gailt aren't ready to be our #1 target yet. Another year and Moore might be close and Cox will a lot better but they need game time to get to that level.
So it will come back to team balance. Can we play Cox Moore Cloke Grundy White Reid Brown Marsh all in one side as talls. Admittedly Marsh can play on smaller players and White's mobility makes him a hard match up.
I thing I noticed last Friday night was White and Cloke competing for the same mark. One needed to lead to a different area taking away a tall defender making it easier for the other. Neither played that decoy role.
Cox did play the de or role when not rucking he led either straight to the ball or back towards goals then to a pocket away from either Cloke and White.
This weeks selection will be interesting if they decide Moore is right to go. Personally I would be keeping Moore on ice to make sure he's 150% right before he plays. 2016 is dead but let's not kill 2017 by playing players who will be vital to our needs then for the sake of a nothing win now
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daicos from the boundry 



Joined: 28 Feb 2006
Location: 6ft under

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:43 am
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Trav just needs to work harder and his confidence MIGHT come back. That's the problem when your on big money. You get scrutinised. The games changed so much the last couple of years with backline structures that teams set up their attacking plays from their back halves. Switches of play to create space and if Travis can't guard or shut down space he is a reliability to the forward defensive structure. And if he ain't assisting or getting on the scoreboard he is the most expendable forward. Cash alone he is. I reckon he had his addition on the weekend for the team in Freo that will make a big play for him at seasons end.
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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:45 am
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Think Trav's biggest issue is that he seems to have lost 1/2 a yard of pace. Not sure if that's a consequence of the apparent knee tendinitis issues he had a couple of years ago or if it's something that will improve. There were reports that he dropped weight in the preseason to apparently improve his mobility but it hasn't been reflected in his footy which comes back to the loss of pace.

Is he expendable? There is probably only a few established senior players that aren't, and another 8-10 kids whom it's too early to judge definitively. He isn't in either of those groups so yes, he is expendable. Not sure though if that means we should be looking to off load him at seasons end or if he'll do that by his own choice.

Of the others...

Cox - still a work in progress so too risky to put all the eggs in that basket.
Gault - needed to make every post a winner to survive beyond 2016, time is fast running out.
Moore - promising colt, see Cox.
White - this is the same White large portions of these boards wanted gone and he's now playing his best consistent footy as a tall medium forward-wing, risky to put all the eggs in that basket.
Reid - still 1 of our best KPFs but will/can he be moved from defense?
Wyatt - project player, see Cox.

We need Cloke more than he needs us, but we also need the Cloke of old, not the abridged version. Quality KPFs don't grow on trees.


Last edited by jackcass on Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 12:48 am
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Cloke is the only Tradable 1 that could get us anything on the Trade Table
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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 9:27 am
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If you want to construct an argument that Cloke's position in the team is expendable based on comparison to four other tall forwards on the list, don't you think it's a bit dishonest comparing Cloke's weaknesses to the strengths of the other players named? Since you've highlighted Cloke's weaknesses as a player pretty well, I don't have to to repeat them, so instead I'll name the weaknesses of the other players mentioned:
White - goes missing at crucial times during a game
Gault - hasn't shown anything at AFL level and spends most of his time injured
Cox - new to AFL footy, lacks awareness of where to run to the footy and fumbles marks
Moore - doesn't get enough of the footy
Now explain to me without Cloke anti-bias why Cloke can't get a game ahead of at least two of the above mentioned players?
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