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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
If White keeps his current form up, he is a valuable utility player. He can basically play anywhere in a pinch. |
The much vaunted, rarely seen, Leigh Brown Role
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"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | | Bob Sugar wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | The selectors and I disagree with you inky. |
Not too sure why the reality is so hard for some to accept... Compare their last 2 games at senior level...
Travis Cloke:
R3 16 disposals; 2 goals 1 behind
R4 15 disposals; 2 goals 0 behinds
Darcy Moore:
R8 7 disposals; 1-1
R9 12 disposal; 1-1
And their season to date...
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d2=5&type=A&pid1=4023&pid2=1521&fid1=S&fid2=S
If we're playing Moore ahead of Cloke it is purely based on longer term potential but it is costing us at the moment. The sooner Cloke is back the better but that doesn't have to occur at the expense of Moore. |
Have you ever heard of fwd pressure? You know, the thing that won us the game against the Cats? Have you ever seen Cloke apply it? Have you ever seen Moore apply it? Well there you go.
After some serious thought on this matter, I've decided Cox and Cloke can't play in the same fwd line, both to slow to put pressure on defenders on the way out. |
Have you meet a man called Jarryd Blair? |
Have you "meet" him?
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Lazza wrote: | | Culprit wrote: | | This could be what Cloke needs, pressure to perform. David would not want his son to take soft option. Buckley is talking to Travis and whilst he is not the sharpest tool in the shed you can see he is listening to the coach. Trav needs to put a month of hard work in and he will be back in the Seniors. A fit and firing Travis will be a massive in if we can retain our form. |
Who would you drop from the current team to play Cloke? |
Crocker. |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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Just watched his VFL game and he looked much, much, much better.
Really good start before drifting out but his effort and desire looked fantastic and his body language was great. He looked like a bloke who was putting his hands up for a senior recall. A very heartening display and I've been critical of his output this year.
I'm not sure who you'd drop for him because our forward line is functioning very well as a unit and if Crocker goes out we may be a bit too tall but who knows.
It's really good to have this problem for the first time this year. Things are looking up.  |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| RudeBoy wrote: | | stoliboy wrote: | Travis Cloke's stats vs Williamstown
4 Goals
1 Behind
13 Disposals
11 Kicks
2 Handballs
5 Marks
4 Tackles
3 Hitouts
87 Dream Team |
...vs Williamstown. |
They're rather like the senior stats he had immediately before he was dropped. |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | stoliboy wrote: | Travis Cloke's stats vs Williamstown
4 Goals
1 Behind
13 Disposals
11 Kicks
2 Handballs
5 Marks
4 Tackles
3 Hitouts
87 Dream Team |
...vs Williamstown. |
They're rather like the senior stats he had immediately before he was dropped. |
against the same williamstown that won the flag last year and was in equal top position prior to the round commencing. from my vantage point he looked liked he had a good game.
interesting that bucks is talking about him as a forward/ruck and he is competing with three or four others. i think this is his biggest challenge - getting his around this dual role - rather than form.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| jackcass wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: | | The selectors and I disagree with you inky. |
Not too sure why the reality is so hard for some to accept... Compare their last 2 games at senior level...
Travis Cloke:
R3 16 disposals; 2 goals 1 behind
R4 15 disposals; 2 goals 0 behinds
Darcy Moore:
R8 7 disposals; 1-1
R9 12 disposal; 1-1
And their season to date...
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/...d2=5&type=A&pid1=4023&pid2=1521&fid1=S&fid2=S
If we're playing Moore ahead of Cloke it is purely based on longer term potential but it is costing us at the moment. The sooner Cloke is back the better but that doesn't have to occur at the expense of Moore. |
Yeah, no one can look at the numbers neutrally and say that the current tall forwards are playing better than Cloke in his last two senior games. At his worst he is still a better player than any of them, with the potential for much more if he recaptures form. At the moment they're getting a pass because they're either young or only just returned in the case of White and we are winning. Lose a few games and the knives will be out, they've all been just ok. Our team can be better and needs to be if we're to be any chance of playing finals.
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Well done boys! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ there is surely more to this than meets the eye. It cannot be about his numbers, which were pretty good. It's something he is doing that the coaches consider either insubordinate or morale-sapping for the side. That might be as simple as earning $700k per annum while not being among the more committed / invested players. Sometimes the signal that you have to earn it and there are no favourites is just what's needed.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
If White keeps his current form up, he is a valuable utility player. He can basically play anywhere in a pinch. |
The much vaunted, rarely seen, Leigh Brown Role |
The things Leroy bought to the table apart from being a 3rd tall and ruck, intimidation and aggression, don't show up in the stats. I can't think of a single player in the league ATM who can play his role like he did,
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | For anyone who is interested, here's the comparison of Cloke and Moore at Moore's present age:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=5&playerStatus2=A&tid2=5&type=A&pid1=1521&pid2=4023&fid1=O&fid2=O
Cloke was, even then, achieving about his present career average for kicks per game. He was getting 12 kicks and 7 marks per game, compared with Moore's career average of 5 kicks and 4 marks.
Moore debuted more than 15 months older than Cloke did. Yet, even so, Cloke was criticised on Nick's after our round 1, 2006 loss for not making an impact as a power forward. He was, at that time, still 3 months younger than Moore was when Moore debuted last year.
By the time Cloke was Moore's present age, he was dominating his position, having games like this against top opposition in which he had 15 kicks, 10 marks and kicked 4 goals (out of 9) in a losing team against the eventual premiers: http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2007/040920070714.html
By the end of that same season, he had 14 kicks and 13 marks and kicked 3 goals 1 in a preliminary final loss by 5 points: http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/2007/040920070921.html
In case anyone thinks the comparison is unfair because Cloke was precocious, here's the comparison between Riewoldt and Moore at the same age:
http://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/ft_player_compare?playerStatus1=A&tid1=16&playerStatus2=A&tid2=5&type=A&pid1=63&pid2=4023&fid1=O&fid2=O |
You'd be better served by comparing them by what they'd done at the same point of their AFL careers.
After 18 games (and the same amount of time in the AFL system) Cloke was averaging 9.6 possessions, 3.6 marks and had kicked 12 goals.
Moore is averaging 9.1 possessions, 4.33 marks and has kicked 21 goals.
Moore is tracking at least as well at the same age and Collingwood didn't hesitate in pumping games into Cloke in 2006 despite Travis only kicking 6 goals in 15 matches. Why? Because the powers that be saw the long term benefit in doing so.
Only a myopic hater (you know the type of person who belittles a second year rookie by comparing his stats to an 11 year veteran and has to cherry pick to even do that) wouldn't see the benefit in doing likewise for Moore. |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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Dropping Moore for Cloke would be Idiotic
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I am Da Man |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Flashman wrote: | | Only a myopic hater (you know the type of person who belittles a second year rookie by comparing his stats to an 11 year veteran and has to cherry pick to even do that) wouldn't see the benefit in doing likewise for Moore. |
1. I didn't "cherry pick". I did a perfectly fair "same age" comparison between Moore and two top CHFs. Indeed, the comparison you apparently prefer isn't available, as far as I can see, on footywire. Thank you for taking the trouble to do the work.
2. The fact that you prefer a games-based comparison of two players, rather than an aged-based one, doesn't make my view that of a "myopic hater" - it merely means we have a difference of opinion. Although I don't propose to take it up at length (because I don't want the personal abuse), a comparison of games shows that in his first 8 games, Cloke had 13, 9, 8, 8, 11, 9, 11 and 11 kicks (and 15 or more disposals 3 times). He fell away, as young players do, later in that season and was dropped after round 20, having being asked to play 15 games before he was 18 and a half years old.
3. I don't recall ever saying anything abusive about Moore. I repeat, here, the view about him which I posted in the Mason Cox appreciation thread. It is, I think a fair reflection of my view:
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | No, I don't hate Moore at all. He's just being gifted games, in my opinion, and I don't like to see that. In the last two weeks, the team has been absolutely on fire and he's had a total of 11 kicks and kicked 2 goals. He looks an outstanding prospect but he just doesn't get enough of the ball. Maybe he will next week against the Welfare's backline full of half-back flankers, since he did last time but I'd prefer him to earn the games. His most impressive game this season was probably his Carlton outing but, even in that one, he didn't actually have a kick in the first half and then came home with a wettish sail. |
To put it in a nutshell, I repeat - "He looks an outstanding prospect but he just doesn't get enough of the ball."
4. As to my view of the comparison between Cloke and Moore:
| Pies4shaw wrote: | | There is simply no plausible basis for selecting Moore ahead of Cloke beyond player development. Moore hasn't had a single good game this year (although he did have a reasonable second half against Carlton after failing to get a kick in the first half). Cloke was dropped after 2 games in succession in which he had more of the ball than Moore has had in any game this season. That could have been done (and no doubt was) for all sorts of reasons - but one of them wasn't that Moore was playing better. In fact, the stats show that in those 2 games, Cloke had 24 kicks - precisely, as fate would have it, 3 times the 8 Moore had over those 2 games. If you count handballs, Cloke only had twice as many disposals as Moore but he did kick 4 times as many goals. |
5. However, it does seem to me that you're letting your hatred of Cloke cloud your response to my posts.
So, eg: | Flashman wrote: | | Try to mark instead of staging for frees Cloke you useless hack |
| Flashman wrote: | "Has Cloke had a possession yet?
He is a <snip> dud." |
6. Otherwise, I hope your games-based comparison proves to be the preferable one. It would be great to see Moore have an 18 kick, 12 mark, 2 goal, 3 tackle, 5 inside 50s outing in game 26 (bearing in mind, of course, that Cloke was still younger in that 26th game than Moore was on debut).
You have perfectly viable points to make. You might find it preferable to put them in way that encourages the discussion. |
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Flashman
Joined: 11 Aug 2007
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^^^I don't hate Cloke either but I get emotional in the heat of a game and the end result is I post stuff like that hence why I don't post in game on threads anymore.
True I was very disappointed in Clokes showing early this year and it wasn't just his numbers being down. His effort, body language and demeanour was terrible for one of our senior and most important players and has been since the NAB challenge.
I posted on Bigfooty about how I watched Collingwood-Carlton in R2 2013 (Malthouses first game against us as Carlton coach) paying particular attention to Cloke and it was a game where Trav was held goalless and beaten on the day by Jamieson but his onfield presence, effort, physicality and contesting was fantastic and chalk and cheese with what he produced in the first 4 rounds this year. That is why I think he was dropped more so than him not kicking many and why Moore was kept in the side because he was providing that.
As noted earlier I think Travis took a big step on the weekend towards getting that passion and desire back and as soon as he does it consistently (no matter how many goals he kicks in the VFL) then he'll be straight back in the side.
As for Moore I too would like to see him get more of it but I can also see the work he's putting in and the benefit of pumping games into him. I don't see the point in comparing him as a like for like with Cloke because he isn't. He's a kid learning the game with a lot of unnecessary expectations being put on him especially to compare him with a veteran former AA forward. I don't see too many people knocking Jordan De Goey because he isn't doing as much as Scott Pendlebury and neither should Moore imo. |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| I have been a long critic of Cloke, because I reckon he let us down way too often, and made us too predictable going forward. I was also extremely disappointed in the way he and his old man conducted their contract negotiations with our club through the media. This year I felt he simply was not playing with enough intensity so was glad he was finally dropped. However, it would be great if this led to him rediscovering his passion for the game and saw him come back to the seniors at some stage, in the good form he showed 2011-2013. If he did that, I'd be the first to congratulate him. |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | Dropping Moore for Cloke would be Idiotic |
Why is that?
Cloke would have better figures, so really it's only because of development that we would continue to play Moore - and probably less morale-sapping misses.
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kill for collingwood! |
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