The great Travis Cloke debate

[think positive]

😀

[Piesnchess]

[stui magpie]

[Bob Sugar]

[Bucks2014]

[Pies4shaw]

In 2010, Cloke kicked 5 goals twice (once in a 20-goal effort against Freo and once in a 24-goal 98 point flogging of the Bumblers). He kicked 4 goals once (the other game against the Bumblers). Otherwise, his best return in the home away matches in our premiership season was 2 goals - he did that 4 times. He kicked only one goal in ten home and away games and was kept goalless in the remaining 3. In the 4 finals that year, he kicked 1 goal, 3 goals, 1 goal and no goals. His contribution to the premiership team was not about the goals he kicked.

Interestingly, he kicked his 150th career goal in the 2010 Qualifying Final against Footscray. That was in his 6th season (and his 121st game). By the end of 2010, Cloke had kicked 155 goals in 124 games at an average of 1.25 goals per game.

In the 6 seasons since Collingwood's 2010 flag (including his mostly poor last 12 months), Cloke has kicked a further 282 goals in 119 games at an average of 2.37 goals per game.

The figures speak for themselves. Cloke's goal-kicking returns in the second half of his career have been almost double what he achieved in the first half of his career. The Club was desperate to retain Cloke on a long contract and did so. Cloke repaid us with the best returns of his career.

In the last 12 months, he's played more average (at best) games than good ones. Then again, he's only played 12 games in the last year. Yet, even in his ten 2016 games his statistical averages have been very similar to his 2010 year, even though the 2016 team has, as a whole, been mostly dreadful.

Cloke is actually one of a handful of players who improved significantly after Collingwood won the flag. I have absolutely no doubt that he's done his best and given us everything he could. The continuing disparagement and sarcasm directed at one of the Club's greatest-ever players is sickening and embarrassing.

[RudeBoy]

[Pies4shaw]

^^^ That's possibly the silliest thing that's ever been said in the entire history of the universe, RB. I know you're just teasing me, though.

[RudeBoy]

[Pies4shaw]

So, the standard, now, for a Collingwood player wishing to avoid your vituperative abuse is to be as good as Carman? Or to be as good as Brereton (the second-best finals forward I have ever seen - you left Crosswell out of your list), Carey (considered by many to be the greatest player ever to play his position) or Ablett Snr (considered by many to be the greatest player ever)?

Rocca - 220 Collingwood games for 404 goals.
Weideman - 180 games for 262 goals.
Kink 154 Collingwood games for 240 goals.
Dunne 213 games for 238 goals.

What's your pass mark to be considered one of Collingwood's greatest-ever players, bearing in mind that, eg, Anthony Rocca, Damian Monkhurst, James Clement, Scott Burns, Paul Licuria, Ray Shaw, Denis Banks, Gavin Crosisca and Mick McGuane have all been admitted individually (that is, not as part of a premiership team) to the official Collingwood Hall of Fame?

[RudeBoy]

[Pies4shaw]

"Measured up" against against Cloke, Weideman was (maybe, being generous) half as good. Of course, he played in a different era, in which "enforcers" were a useful part of any team. As I'm sure you know, no "enforcer" would play 2 games in succession in the present day.

Actually, I never had any time for Kink. I was merely listing other blokes who had had lengthy stints at CHF for Collingwood and I had seen play. On output, week in, week out, for over a decade, Cloke is the best of them.

Otherwise, I was trying to make the point (respectfully) that there are plenty of players in the Club's Hall of Fame who weren't as good as Cloke and contributed less on match-day. There are plenty of better players in there, too (eg, McKenna, Gordon Coventry, Dick Lee). Yet, Cloke seems to be the one singled out for the abuse - that's what I won't ever understand. It seems to me to be nasty and mean-spirited. There were guys who played for Collingwood that I couldn't stand because they almost never turned up to play in any game that mattered - but I (nearly always) held my tongue about them because I assumed that they were doing their best, even though I would rather have been forced to eat my own eyes than watch them play in another Grand Final.

Thus, as I've said many times before, I'm not trying to make a case that Cloke is an all-time great (though he is one of the best and most consistent Collingwood players I have seen - which, as you rightly point out, says more about the Club than it does about Cloke - and will inevitably be inducted into the Hall of Fame), I just wish people would stop being so nasty about him, for no good reason. He isn't (and has never been) a favourite of mine but the repeated baseless criticism is cringeworthy.

[RudeBoy]

[MatthewBoydFanClub]

Cloke has been a great CHF for us, but unfortunately his time has been and come for us and now it's over. Bit like Sav Rocca a bit over a decade ago. I don't know whose fault it is. Maybe it's Buckley's fault or maybe it's Cloke's fault. It doesn't matter. What matters is that he no longer hits the scoreboard and he longer imposes himself in the contest. When White marked and gaoled in the last quarter he moved past Cloke as our preferred marking forward, just as Moore moved past Cloke in the first half of the season. If Cloke stays next year, Crocker will move past him as well. Better to cut our losses and see what we can get for him at seasons end. Otherwise Cloke is just marking time.

[Piesnchess]

IF he fails to fire against the tigers, then its over, that's it, the big Yank comes in for him.