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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Do the polls really suggest that a significant number would vote differently given a second go or is it just a real lot of noise coming from those who don't like the result? |
But how can you trust the polls? How can you be sure that the response is actually true - that the person actually did vote leave and would change their vote? If I'm a pissed off remain voter who wants a second referendum I could easily say that to try and get what I want - a different result! Or I could have actually voted leave and now have changed my mind!
The petition that media have reported as having 2 mill odd signatures is interesting - obviously people sign things without actually reading them 
" A House of Commons spokeswoman said the petition was created on 24 May. There were 22 signatures on it at the time the referendum result was announced.
The petition's website states it was set up by an individual called William Oliver Healey ( a leave voter) and says: "We the undersigned call upon HM Government to implement a rule that if the Remain or Leave vote is less than 60%, based on a turnout less than 75%, there should be another referendum."
The House of Commons petitions committee said it was investigating allegations of fraud in connection with the petition and had already removed 77,000 signatories - and was monitoring it for further suspicious activity. "
25th June 2016 http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36629324
So the referendum went ahead without the rule that the petition (with 22 signatories) called for before the vote even being discussed in the Commons let alone being put in place in - can't apply retrospective rules! So even though it will have to be debated because of the number who have signed will be a brief discussion!! If the remain voters want serious debate at least start a viable petition not just hijack this one set up by a leave voter obviously worried they wouldn't win!
One of the funniest things I've read is that there are around 39,000 signatories claiming to be Vatican City residents (population 800)  
Whatever is decided some leadership and actual planning needs to happen ASAP - the current inertia is not going to help anyone IMHO.
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Stolen from a one-liner in another forum. Says it all.
Brexit: the people of England have decided to accept some short-term pain in exchange for some long-term pain.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: |
Do the polls really suggest that a significant number would vote differently given a second go or is it just a real lot of noise coming from those who don't like the result?
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A bit early to say, Stui. There have been many reports in the papers of people who are saying : "I voted 'leave' but only because I didn't think it would win and I wanted to stick two fingers up to the establishment. If I had known this, I'd have voted differently".
Whether that is a real groundswell or just a few anecdotes is hard to tell. But I think it is very possible that many people who voted leave are now looking at their children and grandchildren, and just realising that they have shut them out of an employment market with 300m people.
The polling will happen over the next few days, I presume - and if it shows a clear remain stance across the country, then the pressure will be on.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Yes, that is an important point. A referendum in the UK has none of the legal authority that it has in Australia. In Australia it is a formal constitutional mechanism. The Uk has no written constitution, and so this referendum is really just a grand opinion poll. That is not to say that it can be easily overturned, politically. But the way it is executed, and when, is very much up for grabs, and that tussle is just beginning.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Tannin wrote: | Stolen from a one-liner in another forum. Says it all.
Brexit: the people of England have decided to accept some short-term pain in exchange for some long-term pain. |
I doubt it. If a decent trade agreement can be struck with the EU, and that may occur before the exit is formalised, then the UK is a similar position to Australia, as a sovereign nation which makes and adjudicates its own laws, on its own territory, in the interests of its own people, while maintaining open trading arrangements with its neighbours. That was the original premise of the common market, and it remains a worthy objective.
I voted remain as I do not think this rupture was necessary now. However, abdicating from a project to create a US of E is not necessarily a bad thing in the long-term.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Samantha Bee on Brexit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nTrs-HuuUc
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Michael Gove and Theresa May are the frontrunners for the Conservative leadership.
I'm amazed that Corbyn hasn't resigned as leader of the Labour Party, especially in light of a vote of no confidence against him.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I think I read somewhere that the party doesn't get to elect it's own leader, there's some BS in play about how the leader is chosen.
Any clues how it works?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Stui, for Uk Labour the essence of it is that you can pay 3 to sign up as a "supporter" and have a vote in the leadership election. The theory was that this would re-engage youth with politics, and create grass roots legitimacy. In fact it has allowed interest groups - unions, hard-left parties and others who are good at mobilisation - to effectively buy up vast numbers of votes cheaply. As a result, the Labour leadership electors look nothing like the traditional Labour members, nothing like the MPs in parliament, and nothing like the British public. In fact the only person the Labour leader does look like is the lead singer of Jethro Tull.
At the moment his rotting political corpse is still sitting in his office despite a vote of no confidence by 170/210 of his MPs. And there is a good chance that he'll be re-elected under the above rules of association in a few months time, though I read today that a further 60,000 people have registered to vote in the last few weeks, and no one quite knows who they are and what they want.
We may well be witnessing the death of the British Labour Party. The Tories are in complete disarray after a set of plots that make House of cards look like the Teletubbies, but it is probable that they will get together under a new and competent leader, now that the blustering blond hot-air balloon has been skewered. Theresa May is odds-on to win, and she is at least competent, tough and has a relatively broad base of support. She's going to need it.
A few weeks ago I thought I lived in one of the saner, more stable countries in the world, politically. I was clearly wrong.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| I like her already, a bit of The Iron Lady 2 about her. Apparently Boris was only going to get out the way if she ran. |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
I think I read somewhere that the party doesn't get to elect it's own leader, there's some BS in play about how the leader is chosen.
Any clues how it works? |
I know it's Wikipedia, but this might help answer your question Stui.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election,_2016#Election_procedure
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| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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I don't think she is as batty as Thatcher, Wokko, but there is certainly a testable theory here that Britain is shipwrecked by public schoolboy idiots ever thirty years or so, and sensible, practical, unromantic and hard headed women are needed to save it.
That said, I don't think this crisis is anywhere near as deep 1979. In 1979 Britain was a rustbucket destroyer going up against battleships. It needed a fierce and half-crazy revolutionary captain then, and it found one. Today we have a battleship ... But we've just put it in a tight spot, surrounded by enemy fire.
May fits the model and will do for these slightly simpler times, I think.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ Stui, for Uk Labour the essence of it is that you can pay 3 to sign up as a "supporter" and have a vote in the leadership election. The theory was that this would re-engage youth with politics, and create grass roots legitimacy. In fact it has allowed interest groups - unions, hard-left parties and others who are good at mobilisation - to effectively buy up vast numbers of votes cheaply. As a result, the Labour leadership electors look nothing like the traditional Labour members, nothing like the MPs in parliament, and nothing like the British public. In fact the only person the Labour leader does look like is the lead singer of Jethro Tull.
At the moment his rotting political corpse is still sitting in his office despite a vote of no confidence by 170/210 of his MPs. And there is a good chance that he'll be re-elected under the above rules of association in a few months time, though I read today that a further 60,000 people have registered to vote in the last few weeks, and no one quite knows who they are and what they want.
We may well be witnessing the death of the British Labour Party. The Tories are in complete disarray after a set of plots that make House of cards look like the Teletubbies, but it is probable that they will get together under a new and competent leader, now that the blustering blond hot-air balloon has been skewered. Theresa May is odds-on to win, and she is at least competent, tough and has a relatively broad base of support. She's going to need it.
A few weeks ago I thought I lived in one of the saner, more stable countries in the world, politically. I was clearly wrong. |
Oh Wow. I didn't realise it was that bad.
170 out of 210 MP's want you gone, you have no right being leader. That's a seriously botched system.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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