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You're a victim, you just don't know it.

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If the allegations are true, was Bowie a rapist?
Yes, clearly. They were underage, end of story.
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
If he knew they were underage, yes, but otherwise no.
50%
 50%  [ 4 ]
No. This wasn't rape.
50%
 50%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 8

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David Libra

Reel around the fountain


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Pripyat, in spirit

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:43 pm
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
When you start being "flexible" about things like the age of consent you start down a slippery slope. 15 is old enough becomes 14 is old enough becomes 13 is old enough becomes 12 is old enough becomes 11 is old enough becomes ....

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/girl-11-consented-to-sex-with-man-28-who-lured-her-from-a-park-french-prosecutors-declare/news-story/b2093ce36c9cac0dff795e9305a197bf


I’m not aware of the complexities of French law here, but it’s worth keeping in mind this paragraph from the article:

Quote:
The girl’s mother told the Mediapart websites she was shocked the rape charge had been dropped to the lesser charge of sexual abuse of a minor.


However absurd that might seem in this particular case, and whatever penalties the latter might entail, the court seems to have basically enacted the principle of most statutory rape laws: that consent (as it were) may be given below a certain age, and that this might be a mitigating factor in sentencing, but that the act is still harmful and worthy of criminal punishment regardless. It’s an interesting case, but perhaps not for the reasons you’re expressing.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:01 pm
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stui magpie wrote:


necrophilia is weird, it would be like having sex with my ex wife so I really don't understand the attraction.


Are you sure you’re not confusing it with bestiality ?

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thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:18 pm
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David wrote:
thesoretoothsayer wrote:
When you start being "flexible" about things like the age of consent you start down a slippery slope. 15 is old enough becomes 14 is old enough becomes 13 is old enough becomes 12 is old enough becomes 11 is old enough becomes ....

http://www.news.com.au/world/europe/girl-11-consented-to-sex-with-man-28-who-lured-her-from-a-park-french-prosecutors-declare/news-story/b2093ce36c9cac0dff795e9305a197bf


I’m not aware of the complexities of French law here, but it’s worth keeping in mind this paragraph from the article:

Quote:
The girl’s mother told the Mediapart websites she was shocked the rape charge had been dropped to the lesser charge of sexual abuse of a minor.


However absurd that might seem in this particular case, and whatever penalties the latter might entail, the court seems to have basically enacted the principle of most statutory rape laws: that consent (as it were) may be given below a certain age, and that this might be a mitigating factor in sentencing, but that the act is still harmful and worthy of criminal punishment regardless. It’s an interesting case, but perhaps not for the reasons you’re expressing.


I actually see it as part of the "slippery slope" stuff. A felony becomes a lesser felony becomes a misdemeanor becomes an infringement becomes "let's all have sex with 11 year olds".
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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 5:24 pm
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Except there’s precisely no evidence of that happening. What you’re saying is basically an example of the problem with slippery slope arguments, where even the slightest change might usher in all manner of horrors. In any case, French law (which has traditionally been a little less rigid than that of the US and other English-speaking countries when it comes to sexual offences and has an age of consent of just 15) is likely no more ‘liberal’ than it was 20, 50 or 100 years ago; if it’s moving in any direction, the zeitgeist would suggest that it’ll be in the opposite one.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:10 pm
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Having now spent ten minutes thinking about it, I think he has a basically sound point. Once, I would have believed that an individual’s consent was sufficient to justify the ethics of most action.

As I have watched, over many years, the damage done “consensually” to those who are vulnerable, I think consent is a lousy pass. The slot machine addict may consent to destroy their finances and life to feed James Packer ; The prostitute may have consented to use the heroin that necessitates her profession. The fifteen year old girl with serial lovers may be more exploiting than the 18 year old boy with social anxiety who beds her. “Consent” is the access-all-areas-pass of libertarians, and the age of consent, while necessary as a matter of practical policy, is too often a mere sentry at the gateway to hell for those who are over 16/18 or whatever.

We should premise more policy upon wisdom, not on the frailty of each individual soul. We used to do this, before the upper-middle class libertarians decided that their freedom was too important to suffer curtailment for the greater good.

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thesoretoothsayer 



Joined: 26 Apr 2017


PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:20 pm
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Quote:
Except there’s precisely no evidence of that happening. What you’re saying is basically an example of the problem with slippery slope arguments, where even the slightest change might usher in all manner of horrors.


Correct. There is no evidence of this. It is conjecture.

However, don't discount the slippery slope:
1. Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service (1933)
2. Nuremberg Laws (1935)
3. You know the rest
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Sun Nov 26, 2017 9:34 pm
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thesoretoothsayer wrote:
Quote:
Except there’s precisely no evidence of that happening. What you’re saying is basically an example of the problem with slippery slope arguments, where even the slightest change might usher in all manner of horrors.


Correct. There is no evidence of this. It is conjecture.

However, don't discount the slippery slope:
1. Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service (1933)
2. Nuremberg Laws (1935)
3. You know the rest


Slippery slopes are certainly real, and I have often objected to change on the basis of the slippery slope argument. It is very persuasive. But in the end, that argument is a bit of a cop-out, because we simply do not know when something is just benign reform and when it is a slippery slope, or where the slope will truly lead when the cascade does happen. I think the only rational basis for objecting to a policy is because it is objectionable in itself, rather than objectionable for where it might lead.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 1:31 am
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Another interesting examination of victimhood here. Most of us know about Roman Polanski’s rape of a 13 year old in the 1970s (recounted in shocking, and some might say pornographic, detail in the court reports and ensuing media coverage) and flight from the US to avoid sentencing for his crime. His victim, Samantha Geimer, has for years maintained that she doesn’t want him to be punished further. Here’s a new interview with her in which she discusses society’s treatment of rape victims and her issues with the current #metoo movement.

http://quillette.com/2018/01/31/nobodys-victim-interview-samantha-geimer/

Quote:
I was not taught that sex is damaging or that it would diminish me. I understood that far worse things happen to people all the time. I was taught to be strong and confident, to be a survivor and to realize that those who would victimize me were the ones who were weak. Bad things happen in life. We must deal with what comes our way and not just roll over and die.

[...]

Rape is wrong. The only person to blame is the one who commits the crime, period. But it is the only crime in which victims are discouraged from being okay. If you are beaten up or your house gets robbed, that can also be traumatic, but at least no-one says you must never get over this or you will insult other victims. I think it is sexist and a way of reinforcing negative sexual stereotypes about women and sex.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:08 am
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Doesn’t want him punished further. He really wasn’t punished, he was a gutless ateshole who ran away and got away with it because he can sell a movie. I’m sure she’s sick of bein associated with it. Good on her for her healthy psych. How are the other victims doing? Maybe, just maybe, there wouldn’t be more victims out there if he hadn’t run away, if he either went to jail or got psychiatric help. Justice is not just about 1 victim, it’s also about protecting the next one.

Don’t care how many movies he makes, he’s a sleaze bag.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 8:02 am
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I get that, and I also sympathise with the view that a victim shouldn’t get to decide whether the perpetrator gets punished or not. Personally, I still think Polanski should be extradited and jailed.

But I find her approach to this interesting nonetheless, in that it kind of chucks a bomb into the current narrative around sexual harassment etc. Victims aren’t supposed to feel this way, and a lot of people dismiss or ignore her as a result (check out that recent, lengthy Guardian piece about Polanski’s crime that didn’t even seek comment from her, for instance). But I’ve long thought that there’s no ‘right’ way for a victim to feel, and I think we can learn something by listening to her.

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swoop42 Virgo

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 12:50 pm
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While it happened prior to I can't help but feel Polanski who had his wife and unborn child savagely murdered by the Manson family has already paid for his crime.

If the woman is prepared to forgive then 40 years after the fact the rest of us who weren't his victim should probably also.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:15 pm
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To be fair, we don’t generally factor the victim’s desires into sentencing when they want a stronger sentence for perpetrators, so I don’t necessarily see why this should be any different. But I do think her view should be respected and taken into account when these questions are discussed; it seems a strange kind of justice to ignore her wishes entirely.
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Last edited by David on Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Pies4shaw 

"Phil had more talent in his little finger than both Abletts combined displayed in their entire careers"


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:19 pm
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Of course, if she doesn't want to give evidence against him, the case might be entirely hopeless.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:20 pm
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Do you think they would be able to simply draw on the testimony given in the original case instead, P4S?
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Wokko Pisces

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Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:44 pm
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Isn't he already guilty and sentenced? Just needs to be bundled in a sack by a bounty hunter and shipped back to the USA.
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