Gun laws in USA??
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | That Trump and his admin / cronies have created the conditons necessary for these type of incidents...is not even a debating point. |
Saying that something is true does not make it true. If it's so obvious, then you'll be able to clearly show me what words/actions from Trump have led to an anti-semitic hate crime.
| Quote: | | To say that his daughter has coverted to Judaism...is not only thick but serves as a deflection of his adminstrations (such that it is) role in creating a hostile environment for Jews. |
I have given examples of why I don't think Trump would want to create the environment for anti-semitic hate crimes. Please give examples of how he's responsible for anti-semitic hate crimes.
| Quote: |
Does one really think that it is accidental that there have never been more sustained & increasing acts of anti-semitic violence in the US since Trump was on the scene? |
They could be totally unrelated. It could be due to many factors like the increasing influence of social media echo chambers and the polarisation of legacy media as it enters it's death spiral. You need to show the link.
| Quote: | | Trumps very late comments on Charlotteville were equivocal and provided encouragement to neo-nazi and other extremist rabble simply because he equivocated. |
Yes, Trumps initial comments on Charlotteville were lamentable.
This does not make him responsible for the murder of 11 people in a synagogue.
| Quote: | | The other main issue has been the attacks on George Soros |
Yes, "George Soros", is for many people a codeword for the "juice".
However, Trump may just not like Soros for his political activism. Just like many on the left don't like the Koch brothers. Again, asserting something doesn't make it true. Give me evidence that when Trump says "Soros" he means "evil juice". |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| David wrote: | That radicalisation is happening as a result of Trump's election (and the mainstreaming of his xenophobic doctrine) is perfectly evident: I mean, it's right here in this case if you're able to see it, as well as the murder during the Charlottesville protests and any number of recent acts of far-right vigilante violence. (And yes, Fox which basically serves as Trump's propaganda machine now does indeed deserve a large share of the blame for all of this.)
But rather than pointing to any number of acts of violence or instances of Trump using far-right slogans, mulling over anti-immigrant policy (remember when "banning Muslims" was considered the sort of thing only a right-wing extremist would suggest?), approvingly citing far-right commentary or equivocating when tasked with criticising neo-Nazis, let me ask you this: what effect do you think Trump's presidency has had on the US far right?
| MJ23 wrote: | | ^ again, this gets Trump re-elected. |
And not challenging or criticising his administration has what effect, exactly? |
This is just irrational and exhausting. You seriously cant see what the left and yes right are doing, saying, campaigning on right now. All you see is the equation that suits your narrative. A + B = Trump. This nutcase is more likely to have snapped after the 24-7 coverage of anti Trump rhetoric than the Trump campaigning. Probably should be blaming Lemon and Maddow. Its crap and makes for a good emotional release for those that are quite frankly closed off to any alternate view.
There is an economic illegal immigration issue in the US. It is real. There are problems now created by this including the slowing down of Legal immigration of refugees from hate, intolerance and violence. This is not good for anyone. Every country has a right of sovereignty. Just 10 years ago Obama, Clinton, Shcumer said this openly. It is not just Trumps "base" that recognises this. It wasn't Trumps base that got him elected. In fact if the African American vote was not moving away from the Dems they would still be for a closed boarder.
Senior Democrats have actively called for intolerance, incivility, hate towards anyone who does not agree with them for months. Without condemnation and in fact with the support of CNN, MSNBC, ABC etc. Peolsi, Watters, Clinton, Booker, Holder.......the list goes on who have stood on a mainstream platform and spoke the hateful, inciting rhetoric encouraging supporters to attack those that they disagree with......that they disagree with !!!
Farrakhan just days ago said, So when they talk about Farrakhan, call me a hater, you know they do, call me an anti-Semite stop it! Im anti-termite!
This bloke is mates with Obama, Clinton, Ellison, Sharpton and Jackson. They all sat with each other at Aretha's funeral.
The left has lost it and Trump is no politician. He gets attacked and he returns serve. You can argue this is not Presidential and Id agree. I wish sometimes he would ignore the 90% negative media coverage and just get on with it. Simply thats not him, it will never be him. Its very un-republican. The Irony is that it is in fact very Democrat and they hate him for it.
Im just sick of the one sided view and need to Blame those with a different view. Tats what this nutcase just did.
Oh, and ask yourself why when Obama had a super majority he did nothing to address the gun issue ?
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | That Trump and his admin / cronies have created the conditons necessary for these type of incidents...is not even a debating point. |
Saying that something is true does not make it true. If it's so obvious, then you'll be able to clearly show me what words/actions from Trump have led to an anti-semitic hate crime.
| Quote: | | To say that his daughter has coverted to Judaism...is not only thick but serves as a deflection of his adminstrations (such that it is) role in creating a hostile environment for Jews. |
I have given examples of why I don't think Trump would want to create the environment for anti-semitic hate crimes. Please give examples of how he's responsible for anti-semitic hate crimes.
| Quote: |
Does one really think that it is accidental that there have never been more sustained & increasing acts of anti-semitic violence in the US since Trump was on the scene? |
They could be totally unrelated. It could be due to many factors like the increasing influence of social media echo chambers and the polarisation of legacy media as it enters it's death spiral. You need to show the link.
| Quote: | | Trumps very late comments on Charlotteville were equivocal and provided encouragement to neo-nazi and other extremist rabble simply because he equivocated. |
Yes, Trumps initial comments on Charlotteville were lamentable.
This does not make him responsible for the murder of 11 people in a synagogue.
| Quote: | | The other main issue has been the attacks on George Soros |
Yes, "George Soros", is for many people a codeword for the "juice".
However, Trump may just not like Soros for his political activism. Just like many on the left don't like the Koch brothers. Again, asserting something doesn't make it true. Give me evidence that when Trump says "Soros" he means "evil juice". |
far too rational.
To add, Id argue that if in fact Trump was a driving influence for this nutcase, it would be because Trump is a huge supporter of Israel, has actively supported them in speeches and actions including the US recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. This was something no other President would do after congress had voted in favour of doing so. Netanyahu called Trump a Great friend of Israel.
To ask why attacks in the US against Israel have increased with Trump presidency ( Not sure they have but ok) Id suggest its because of Trumps support indicating responsibility on the other side of the aisle.
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | Farrakhan just days ago said, So when they talk about Farrakhan, call me a hater, you know they do, call me an anti-Semite stop it! Im anti-termite! This bloke is mates with Obama, Clinton, Ellison, Sharpton and Jackson. They all sat with each other at Aretha's funeral. |
Yeah, I forgot this. You could also add the increasingly virulent language used by people like Sarsour and the women's march. Also, here's a tweet from Ilhan Omar the Democratic congressional candidate: "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."
So you can argue that this guy is just as much the left's guy as he is the rights.
I don't argue this. I argue that he is the person responsible for his horrific crime. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | That Trump and his admin / cronies have created the conditons necessary for these type of incidents...is not even a debating point. |
Saying that something is true does not make it true. If it's so obvious, then you'll be able to clearly show me what words/actions from Trump have led to an anti-semitic hate crime.
| Quote: | | To say that his daughter has coverted to Judaism...is not only thick but serves as a deflection of his adminstrations (such that it is) role in creating a hostile environment for Jews. |
I have given examples of why I don't think Trump would want to create the environment for anti-semitic hate crimes. Please give examples of how he's responsible for anti-semitic hate crimes.
| Quote: |
Does one really think that it is accidental that there have never been more sustained & increasing acts of anti-semitic violence in the US since Trump was on the scene? |
They could be totally unrelated. It could be due to many factors like the increasing influence of social media echo chambers and the polarisation of legacy media as it enters it's death spiral. You need to show the link.
| Quote: | | Trumps very late comments on Charlotteville were equivocal and provided encouragement to neo-nazi and other extremist rabble simply because he equivocated. |
Yes, Trumps initial comments on Charlotteville were lamentable.
This does not make him responsible for the murder of 11 people in a synagogue.
| Quote: | | The other main issue has been the attacks on George Soros |
Yes, "George Soros", is for many people a codeword for the "juice".
However, Trump may just not like Soros for his political activism. Just like many on the left don't like the Koch brothers. Again, asserting something doesn't make it true. Give me evidence that when Trump says "Soros" he means "evil juice". |
I said Trump and his administration & cronies have created the environment for anti-semitic incienence & violent crimes in the US not the dorect cause yet you keep asking how how Trump is responsible. Now if you can't distinguish between the two or can't see what's in front of you then no argument will satsify such ignorance or blindness.
As far as Soros is concerned you need to read more widely. This is pretty basic stuff SS. Soros is a case par excellence of classical use anti-semitic tropes not limited to Trump as noted above.
This isn't difficult. However I'm not going to waste my time because you've been too lazy to notice.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| MJ23 wrote: | To add, Id argue that if in fact Trump was a driving influence for this nutcase, it would be because Trump is a huge supporter of Israel, has actively supported them in speeches and actions including the US recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. This was something no other President would do after congress had voted in favour of doing so. Netanyahu called Trump a Great friend of Israel.
To ask why attacks in the US against Israel have increased with Trump presidency ( Not sure they have but ok) Id suggest its because of Trumps support indicating responsibility on the other side of the aisle. |
That explanation might make sense in an imaginary, hypothetical world, but it bears no relation to the actual current discourses and tactics of the far right. Trump and his circle of media propagandists (including Fox News, Breitbart, right-wing talk radio and sundry viagra-marketing fake-news sites that take up his talking points + the alt-right social media sphere that mostly sees him as one of their own) have effectively fostered a heightened culture of hysteria around immigration. When they disagree with him, as anti-Semites do on Israel, it's often because he's not going far enough; but that doesn't mean that they don't take his 'caravan' fearmongering on face value and as fact.
| MJ23 wrote: | | David wrote: | | And not challenging or criticising his administration has what effect, exactly? |
This is just irrational and exhausting. You seriously cant see what the left and yes right are doing, saying, campaigning on right now. All you see is the equation that suits your narrative. A + B = Trump. This nutcase is more likely to have snapped after the 24-7 coverage of anti Trump rhetoric than the Trump campaigning. Probably should be blaming Lemon and Maddow. Its crap and makes for a good emotional release for those that are quite frankly closed off to any alternate view. |
I can fairly safely guarantee you that this shooter (and people like him) does not watch CNN or MSNBC. I can also guarantee you that he probably does read WorldNewsDaily and InfoWars links. Let's get real here: however annoying these smarmy liberal-centrist talking heads may be, they are not radicalising the alt-right; they're just preaching to their own choir.
| MJ23 wrote: | | There is an economic illegal immigration issue in the US. It is real. There are problems now created by this including the slowing down of Legal immigration of refugees from hate, intolerance and violence. This is not good for anyone. Every country has a right of sovereignty. Just 10 years ago Obama, Clinton, Shcumer said this openly. It is not just Trumps "base" that recognises this. It wasn't Trumps base that got him elected. In fact if the African American vote was not moving away from the Dems they would still be for a closed boarder. |
There's no question that there are substantial numbers of illegal immigrants entering the US from year to year, and also no question that Trump has done everything he can to exploit that issue, dogwhistle to people's xenophobic fears and wring political capital from it. One of the most absurdly and blatantly racist things he has done has been to invent the concept of "angel families" (families of people killed by undocumented Latin American migrants). Like most people, I'm mostly desensitised to the stupid things Trump says and does nowadays, but even my jaw dropped when I heard that.
| MJ23 wrote: | | The left has lost it and Trump is no politician. He gets attacked and he returns serve. You can argue this is not Presidential and Id agree. I wish sometimes he would ignore the 90% negative media coverage and just get on with it. Simply thats not him, it will never be him. Its very un-republican. The Irony is that it is in fact very Democrat and they hate him for it. |
I don't understand what you're saying here that Trump is a Democrat, policy-wise? Tax cuts for the big end of town, using transgender people as pawns in a culture war and scaremongering about illegal immigration included? That would be pretty laughable if so, but I'd rather give you the benefit of the doubt here. Perhaps I've misunderstood.
| MJ23 wrote: | | Oh, and ask yourself why when Obama had a super majority he did nothing to address the gun issue ? |
Whether it was complacency or caution the notion that more radical reforms would be possible in a second term, for instance it doesn't seem to be in serious doubt that he wanted to. After the Republicans gained control in 2010, though, the chance was gone, as was the chance of anything much of his domestic agenda getting through. Let's hope the Democrats return the favour this year.
_________________
"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | Farrakhan just days ago said, So when they talk about Farrakhan, call me a hater, you know they do, call me an anti-Semite stop it! Im anti-termite! This bloke is mates with Obama, Clinton, Ellison, Sharpton and Jackson. They all sat with each other at Aretha's funeral. |
Yeah, I forgot this. You could also add the increasingly virulent language used by people like Sarsour and the women's march. Also, here's a tweet from Ilhan Omar the Democratic congressional candidate: "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."
So you can argue that this guy is just as much the left's guy as he is the rights.
I don't argue this. I argue that he is the person responsible for his horrific crime. |
I have no issue with anti-semitism and anti zionism being conflated by the left or by Farrakan: old news. has been going on for ages. However, don't be too clever by half: which left wingers in the US have killed or perpetrated violence on Jews?
Muslim anti semitism is a huge issue (don't bother with the arabs are semites too - we all know what we are talking about) some of which like Trumps active supporters fo down the classiucal anti semtiic tropes regarding not just Soros but Jews trying to control the world stuff. It's where Islamists and extreme right wingers agree.
It is not quite but almost the exclusive domain of the right. No iff's buts or maybe's about it.
The ADLs study concludes online disinformation and abuse is disproportionately targeting Jews in the US during this crucial political moment.
Prior to the election of President Donald Trump, anti-Semitic harassment and attacks were rare and unexpected, even for Jewish Americans who were prominently situated in the public eye. Following his election, anti-Semitism has become normalized and harassment is a daily occurrence, the report says.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-online-attacks-on-jews-ramp-up-before-election-day/
There are many more examples. Stop trying to defend the obvious about Trump & his supporters / administration tjhat they have provided the environment ripe for white male right wing murderers to kill people or hurt people because of their religion / race / ethnicity / group etc.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| David wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | To add, Id argue that if in fact Trump was a driving influence for this nutcase, it would be because Trump is a huge supporter of Israel, has actively supported them in speeches and actions including the US recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. This was something no other President would do after congress had voted in favour of doing so. Netanyahu called Trump a Great friend of Israel.
To ask why attacks in the US against Israel have increased with Trump presidency ( Not sure they have but ok) Id suggest its because of Trumps support indicating responsibility on the other side of the aisle. |
That explanation might make sense in an imaginary, hypothetical world, but it bears no relation to the actual current discourses and tactics of the far right. Trump and his circle of media propagandists (including Fox News, Breitbart, right-wing talk radio and sundry viagra-marketing fake-news sites that take up his talking points + the alt-right social media sphere that mostly sees him as one of their own) have effectively fostered a heightened culture of hysteria around immigration. When they disagree with him, as anti-Semites do on Israel, it's often because he's not going far enough; but that doesn't mean that they don't take his 'caravan' fearmongering on face value and as fact.
| MJ23 wrote: | | David wrote: | | And not challenging or criticising his administration has what effect, exactly? |
This is just irrational and exhausting. You seriously cant see what the left and yes right are doing, saying, campaigning on right now. All you see is the equation that suits your narrative. A + B = Trump. This nutcase is more likely to have snapped after the 24-7 coverage of anti Trump rhetoric than the Trump campaigning. Probably should be blaming Lemon and Maddow. Its crap and makes for a good emotional release for those that are quite frankly closed off to any alternate view. |
I can fairly safely guarantee you that this shooter (and people like him) does not watch CNN or MSNBC. I can also guarantee you that he probably does read WorldNewsDaily and InfoWars links. Let's get real here: however annoying these smarmy liberal-centrist talking heads may be, they are not radicalising the alt-right; they're just preaching to their own choir.
| MJ23 wrote: | | There is an economic illegal immigration issue in the US. It is real. There are problems now created by this including the slowing down of Legal immigration of refugees from hate, intolerance and violence. This is not good for anyone. Every country has a right of sovereignty. Just 10 years ago Obama, Clinton, Shcumer said this openly. It is not just Trumps "base" that recognises this. It wasn't Trumps base that got him elected. In fact if the African American vote was not moving away from the Dems they would still be for a closed boarder. |
There's no question that there are substantial numbers of illegal immigrants entering the US from year to year, and also no question that Trump has done everything he can to exploit that issue, dogwhistle to people's xenophobic fears and wring political capital from it. One of the most absurdly and blatantly racist things he has done has been to invent the concept of "angel families" (families of people killed by undocumented Latin American migrants). Like most people, I'm mostly desensitised to the stupid things Trump says and does nowadays, but even my jaw dropped when I heard that.
| MJ23 wrote: | | The left has lost it and Trump is no politician. He gets attacked and he returns serve. You can argue this is not Presidential and Id agree. I wish sometimes he would ignore the 90% negative media coverage and just get on with it. Simply thats not him, it will never be him. Its very un-republican. The Irony is that it is in fact very Democrat and they hate him for it. |
I don't understand what you're saying here that Trump is a Democrat, policy-wise? Tax cuts for the big end of town, using transgender people as pawns in a culture war and scaremongering about illegal immigration included? That would be pretty laughable if so, but I'd rather give you the benefit of the doubt here. Perhaps I've misunderstood.
| MJ23 wrote: | | Oh, and ask yourself why when Obama had a super majority he did nothing to address the gun issue ? |
Whether it was complacency or caution the notion that more radical reforms would be possible in a second term, for instance it doesn't seem to be in serious doubt that he wanted to. After the Republicans gained control in 2010, though, the chance was gone, as was the chance of anything much of his domestic agenda getting through. Let's hope the Democrats return the favour this year. |
Your arguing for and against yourself.
This sentence works both ways and is no less right or wrong. It just depends on your point of view which the left are incapable of.
"That explanation might make sense in an imaginary, hypothetical world, but it bears no relation to the actual current discourses and tactics of the far Left. Pelosi, Watters and their circle of media propagandists (including CNN, MSNBC, left-wing talk radio and sundry viagra-marketing fake-news sites that take up their talking points + the alt-left social media sphere that mostly sees them as one of their own) have effectively fostered a heightened culture of hysteria around Trump and his views on illegal invasion. When they disagree with him, as anti-Semites do on Israel, it's often because he's too supportive of Israel, something they refuse to do; but that doesn't mean that they don't take his 'caravan' fearmongering on face value and as fact."
You cant "safely guarantee" anything about the shooter especially what he watched or didn't watch. Thats conjecture and not an argument and even if he did watch one channel over another is that true causation at the expense of everything else including his mental health ? "Clinton just said you cannot be civil to a party that wants to destroy what you stand for". Pelosi said " If there is collateral damage for those who dont share out views then so be it"
By your logic Clinton and Pelosi will be the blame if some mentally ill left supporter who hears this then shoots a few republicans at the next baseball match. And if that is not to occur we are what...all good ?
I just cant even go to the rest of it except, MS13 is real and is really killing citizens and non-citizens, the boarder is in fact out of control and voters outside his base agree, Trump acts like a Democrat in the fact that he responds, directly to those that abuse and target him with blunt attacking language - when he is attacked he attacks back !( just like Watters, Booker, Clinton and every dem ever. Seriously, how did you not understand this)
Obama DID NOTHING when in fact he could of done something that he is advocating for then and now. He saw the polls, he knew the mid-terms often go against the incumbent he was weak and the reason Trump is able to undo most of what he has done.
Look, Im not a Trump supporter. In saying that I feel Im starting to become one by reading the vitriol, leap-frogging conclusions and total lack of ideas, debate and ignorance of what the American voters - middle america in particular - are concerned about. They are ignored or worse called a racist for their genuine fears and efforts to communicate what is important to them and why.
Anyway. Just saying what you are saying repeatedly, and how you are saying it is why Trump got elected and if nothing changes before 2020, will get elected again.
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| watt price tully wrote: | | thesoretoothsayer wrote: | | Quote: | | Farrakhan just days ago said, So when they talk about Farrakhan, call me a hater, you know they do, call me an anti-Semite stop it! Im anti-termite! This bloke is mates with Obama, Clinton, Ellison, Sharpton and Jackson. They all sat with each other at Aretha's funeral. |
Yeah, I forgot this. You could also add the increasingly virulent language used by people like Sarsour and the women's march. Also, here's a tweet from Ilhan Omar the Democratic congressional candidate: "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel."
So you can argue that this guy is just as much the left's guy as he is the rights.
I don't argue this. I argue that he is the person responsible for his horrific crime. |
I have no issue with anti-semitism and anti zionism being conflated by the left or by Farrakan: old news. has been going on for ages. However, don't be too clever by half: which left wingers in the US have killed or perpetrated violence on Jews?
Muslim anti semitism is a huge issue (don't bother with the arabs are semites too - we all know what we are talking about) some of which like Trumps active supporters fo down the classiucal anti semtiic tropes regarding not just Soros but Jews trying to control the world stuff. It's where Islamists and extreme right wingers agree.
It is not quite but almost the exclusive domain of the right. No iff's buts or maybe's about it.
The ADLs study concludes online disinformation and abuse is disproportionately targeting Jews in the US during this crucial political moment.
Prior to the election of President Donald Trump, anti-Semitic harassment and attacks were rare and unexpected, even for Jewish Americans who were prominently situated in the public eye. Following his election, anti-Semitism has become normalized and harassment is a daily occurrence, the report says.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/study-online-attacks-on-jews-ramp-up-before-election-day/
There are many more examples. Stop trying to defend the obvious about Trump & his supporters / administration tjhat they have provided the environment ripe for white male right wing murderers to kill people or hurt people because of their religion / race / ethnicity / group etc. |
I dont beleive the "far right" are indicative examples of Trumps Base any more than I beleive the "Far left" are examples of Schumer, Clinton, Watters, Booker or Harris base. ( Although Watters did in fact openly support riots and an exiled police killer so .........could be).
I disagree absolutely that Trump, his admin and supporters have provided the environment you speak of. Its so simplistic its not funny and Im tired of it. Radical Islam to the Muslim faith is what KKK is the the catholic faith. By your logic the fact that one element of the faith can be taken to the extreme is grounds for rejecting the whole faith outright. If this is your goto again, Trump will get elected again because there is just no conceding of facts on the left.
White male murders........really. There have been 441 homicides in Chicago this year from what I can tell, 337 of them were African American. Care to guess how many of them were killed by white males ?
Was this fostered by Obama or the current/previous Democrats in charge ?
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| MJ23 wrote: | | David wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | To add, Id argue that if in fact Trump was a driving influence for this nutcase, it would be because Trump is a huge supporter of Israel, has actively supported them in speeches and actions including the US recognition of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. This was something no other President would do after congress had voted in favour of doing so. Netanyahu called Trump a Great friend of Israel.
To ask why attacks in the US against Israel have increased with Trump presidency ( Not sure they have but ok) Id suggest its because of Trumps support indicating responsibility on the other side of the aisle. |
That explanation might make sense in an imaginary, hypothetical world, but it bears no relation to the actual current discourses and tactics of the far right. Trump and his circle of media propagandists (including Fox News, Breitbart, right-wing talk radio and sundry viagra-marketing fake-news sites that take up his talking points + the alt-right social media sphere that mostly sees him as one of their own) have effectively fostered a heightened culture of hysteria around immigration. When they disagree with him, as anti-Semites do on Israel, it's often because he's not going far enough; but that doesn't mean that they don't take his 'caravan' fearmongering on face value and as fact.
| MJ23 wrote: | | David wrote: | | And not challenging or criticising his administration has what effect, exactly? |
This is just irrational and exhausting. You seriously cant see what the left and yes right are doing, saying, campaigning on right now. All you see is the equation that suits your narrative. A + B = Trump. This nutcase is more likely to have snapped after the 24-7 coverage of anti Trump rhetoric than the Trump campaigning. Probably should be blaming Lemon and Maddow. Its crap and makes for a good emotional release for those that are quite frankly closed off to any alternate view. |
I can fairly safely guarantee you that this shooter (and people like him) does not watch CNN or MSNBC. I can also guarantee you that he probably does read WorldNewsDaily and InfoWars links. Let's get real here: however annoying these smarmy liberal-centrist talking heads may be, they are not radicalising the alt-right; they're just preaching to their own choir.
| MJ23 wrote: | | There is an economic illegal immigration issue in the US. It is real. There are problems now created by this including the slowing down of Legal immigration of refugees from hate, intolerance and violence. This is not good for anyone. Every country has a right of sovereignty. Just 10 years ago Obama, Clinton, Shcumer said this openly. It is not just Trumps "base" that recognises this. It wasn't Trumps base that got him elected. In fact if the African American vote was not moving away from the Dems they would still be for a closed boarder. |
There's no question that there are substantial numbers of illegal immigrants entering the US from year to year, and also no question that Trump has done everything he can to exploit that issue, dogwhistle to people's xenophobic fears and wring political capital from it. One of the most absurdly and blatantly racist things he has done has been to invent the concept of "angel families" (families of people killed by undocumented Latin American migrants). Like most people, I'm mostly desensitised to the stupid things Trump says and does nowadays, but even my jaw dropped when I heard that.
| MJ23 wrote: | | The left has lost it and Trump is no politician. He gets attacked and he returns serve. You can argue this is not Presidential and Id agree. I wish sometimes he would ignore the 90% negative media coverage and just get on with it. Simply thats not him, it will never be him. Its very un-republican. The Irony is that it is in fact very Democrat and they hate him for it. |
I don't understand what you're saying here that Trump is a Democrat, policy-wise? Tax cuts for the big end of town, using transgender people as pawns in a culture war and scaremongering about illegal immigration included? That would be pretty laughable if so, but I'd rather give you the benefit of the doubt here. Perhaps I've misunderstood.
| MJ23 wrote: | | Oh, and ask yourself why when Obama had a super majority he did nothing to address the gun issue ? |
Whether it was complacency or caution the notion that more radical reforms would be possible in a second term, for instance it doesn't seem to be in serious doubt that he wanted to. After the Republicans gained control in 2010, though, the chance was gone, as was the chance of anything much of his domestic agenda getting through. Let's hope the Democrats return the favour this year. |
Your arguing for and against yourself.
This sentence works both ways and is no less right or wrong. It just depends on your point of view which the left are incapable of.
"That explanation might make sense in an imaginary, hypothetical world, but it bears no relation to the actual current discourses and tactics of the far Left. Pelosi, Watters and their circle of media propagandists (including CNN, MSNBC, left-wing talk radio and sundry viagra-marketing fake-news sites that take up their talking points + the alt-left social media sphere that mostly sees them as one of their own) have effectively fostered a heightened culture of hysteria around Trump and his views on illegal invasion. When they disagree with him, as anti-Semites do on Israel, it's often because he's too supportive of Israel, something they refuse to do; but that doesn't mean that they don't take his 'caravan' fearmongering on face value and as fact."
You cant "safely guarantee" anything about the shooter especially what he watched or didn't watch. Thats conjecture and not an argument and even if he did watch one channel over another is that true causation at the expense of everything else including his mental health ? "Clinton just said you cannot be civil to a party that wants to destroy what you stand for". Pelosi said " If there is collateral damage for those who dont share out views then so be it"
By your logic Clinton and Pelosi will be the blame if some mentally ill left supporter who hears this then shoots a few republicans at the next baseball match. And if that is not to occur we are what...all good ?
I just cant even go to the rest of it except, MS13 is real and is really killing citizens and non-citizens, the boarder is in fact out of control and voters outside his base agree, Trump acts like a Democrat in the fact that he responds, directly to those that abuse and target him with blunt attacking language - when he is attacked he attacks back !( just like Watters, Booker, Clinton and every dem ever. Seriously, how did you not understand this)
Obama DID NOTHING when in fact he could of done something that he is advocating for then and now. He saw the polls, he knew the mid-terms often go against the incumbent he was weak and the reason Trump is able to undo most of what he has done.
Look, Im not a Trump supporter. In saying that I feel Im starting to become one by reading the vitriol, leap-frogging conclusions and total lack of ideas, debate and ignorance of what the American voters - middle america in particular - are concerned about. They are ignored or worse called a racist for their genuine fears and efforts to communicate what is important to them and why.
Anyway. Just saying what you are saying repeatedly, and how you are saying it is why Trump got elected and if nothing changes before 2020, will get elected again. |
This is getting ridiculous youre going to become a Trump supporter because Im being mean to you (by vigorously criticising Trump)? Mate, if you want to support an anti-immigrant, dog-whistling would-be tyrant with a shambolic administration, thats on you. Have enough courage to own your decisions. Say what you like about the left and liberals, but at least you dont generally get this kind of poor me routine from them.
Otherwise, your repurposing of my quote totally misses the point (and doesnt even make sense). Im talking about a very specific media landscape thats peculiar to the US right; you cant just invert this stuff. There is no left (let alone far-left) talk radio to speak of, and while left-wing fake news sites exist, they dont hold nearly the same sort of clout that their right-wing counterparts do (case in point, Trump gave a chummy interview to Alex Jones and cited National Enquirer stories as fact; can you imagine any serious Democrat candidate doing the same for, say, NaturalNews!? But of course, to the right, the real counterparts to these sites are the BBC and New York Times, and what can you say to that...). And even if these things were directly comparable, it still ignores the fact that the notion of Stormfront denizens watching MSNBC and reading The Guardian and getting more and more racist is completely preposterous. Those people have long since left any kind ot mainstream space. Thats why they see Trump as a moderate.
By the way, while I have no idea whether or not Trump will be re-elected, Im pretty sure the best way to stop it isnt to just back off and let him govern or whatever else youre suggesting. Thats precisely what Republicans want people to do. The best response is for people to organise, bring attention to issues and convince the undecideds to turn out to vote for someone else. A crucial first step is for the Democrats to get their shit together and put up a decent candidate with serious, progressive policies this time around.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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It's interesting to read Serwer's condemnation of Trump next to his oh so gentle piece on Tamika Mallory's refusal to condemn Farrakhan.
It's almost as if he treats people differently depending on what side of the political divide they are on. But, of course, an impartial journalist would never do that.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/03/nation-of-islam/555332/ |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I'm enjoying this thread, good robust debate.
FWIW I don't think Trump has created any culture deliberately. What he has done is tap into a pre existing middle America who felt disenfranchised and ignored by the 2 opposing coastal meccas (NY and So Cal) who run the progressive agenda and, to a degree, enabled them to speak up.
He didn't create their views.
At the same time, the closest thing the USA has to left wingers, haven't left therapy since he was elected and attack him without thought or measure at every turn, both winding up their own supporters and pissing off their opponents.
Basically, the US is more polarised than pretty much any time since the civil war
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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The shooter was a Nazi (A real one, not just a centre-right Conservative) who hated Trump for not being a Nazi.
Somehow Trump's fault. Or the Republicans fault (even though this does nothing but hurt them in the Midterms).
Yet when the Bernie supporting Democrat shot up the Republican baseball game nobody blamed Bernie or the Democrats (well no media or lefty posters on social media).
As for Soros, I guess Bibi is an anti-Semite too? He slammed Soros. People don't hate Soros for being a Jew, they hate him for being a Nation destroying %$^%$$%. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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I note weve conveniently forgotten the pipe-bomb guy, who actually is a Trump supporter.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | I note weve conveniently forgotten the pipe-bomb guy, who actually is a Trump supporter. |
They weren't bombs they were fake bombs and that guy was so obviously off the deep end insane he's hardly worth mentioning. Makes a great lead story on CNN and lets people yell "Orange Man Bad", but it was a big nothing burger.
I note we've conveniently forgotten all the ricin letters sent to Trump's family and the administration. |
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