Gun laws in USA??
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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So sad, we drove right passed it last year, going from the PA speedway to the Abby Lee Dance Studio, on the way to Niagara Falls, real iron mill town, RIP
and may the shooter die a painful death and rot in hell
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The shooter? How about the entire Trump administration?
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/10/caravan-lie-sparked-massacre-american-jews/574213/
| Quote: | In reality, the caravan was thousands of miles and weeks away from the U.S. border, shrinking in size, and unlikely to reach the U.S. before the election. If the migrants reach the U.S., they have the right under U.S. law to apply for asylum at a port of entry. If their claims are not accepted, they will be turned away. There is no national emergency, there is no ominous threat. There is only a group of desperate people looking for a better life, who have a right to request asylum in the United States, and have no right to stay if their claims are rejected. Trump is reportedly aware that his claims about the caravan are false. An administration official told the Daily Beast simply, it doesnt matter if its 100 percent accurate this is the play. The "play" was to demonize vulnerable people with falsehoods in order to frighten Trump's base to the polls.
[...]
Prior to committing the Tree of Life massacre, the shooter, who blamed Jews for the caravan of invaders and who raged about it on social media, made it clear that he was furious at HIAS, founded as the Hebew Immigrant Aid Society, a Jewish group that helps resettle refugees in the United States. He shared posts on Gab, a social-media site popular with the alt-right, expressing alarm at the sight of massive human caravans of young men from Honduras and El Salvador invading America thru our unsecured southern border. And then he wrote, HIAS likes to bring invaders in that kill our people. I cant sit by and watch my people get slaughtered. Screw your optics, Im going in.
[...]
Many of Trumps defenders argue that his rhetoric is mere shtick. That his attacks, however cruel, arent taken 100 percent seriously by his supporters. But to make this argument is to concede that following Trumps statements to their logical conclusion could lead to violence against his targets, and it is only because most do not take it that way, that the political violence committed on Trumps behalf is as limited as it currently is.
The Tree of Life shooter criticized Trump for not being racist or anti-Semitic enough. But with respect to the caravan, the shooter merely followed the logic of the president and his allies: He was willing to do whatever was necessary to prevent an invasion of Latinos planned by perfidious Jews, a treasonous attempt to seek the destruction of American society and culture.
The apparent spark for the worst anti-Semitic massacre in American history was a racist hoax inflamed by a U.S. president seeking to help his party win a midterm election. There is no political gesture, no public statement, and no alteration in rhetoric or behavior that will change this fact. The shooter might have found a different reason to act on a different day. But he chose to act on Saturday, and he apparently chose to act in response to a political fiction that the president himself chose to spread, and that his followers chose to amplify. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | The Tree of Life shooter criticized Trump for not being racist or anti-Semitic enough. |
Trump's daughter is a Jewish convert.
His son-in-law is Jewish.
He moved the American embassy to Jerusalem to the applause of the Jewish state.
He is considered by the Israeli government to be a "true friend of israel".
And the shooter considered Trump a Jewish puppet.
But yeah, he's definitely an anti-semite who inspired the murder of Jews. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Dont be thick, sts. The shooter made clear that the motive (or, at least, tipping point) for this massacre was the precise caravan beat-up that Trump has been scaremongering about for the last few weeks. That he interpreted this through the lens of his own anti-semitism and even further right views doesnt absolve Trump and his cronies of responsibility.
When a politician of any persuasion decides to sow fear and panic about a given issue, its not just the people who ideologically align with them and lap up their every word that you have to worry about. Its those who are one step further to the extreme who are more likely to take matters into their own hands. Nobody is accusing Trump personally of being anti-semitic (for all we know, he doesnt even hate Muslims; does he really believe in anything?); its the recklessness of the language that he chooses and the lies that he perpetuates that give anti-semites and other assorted dangerous groups both validation and motive.
I mean, fancy living in a world in which the words chosen by elected leaders actually have real-world consequences...
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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^ This is why Trump won and is constantly underestimated.
Dems need to be better, think better and understand both pov to become a credible alternative.
America and the Tump admin needs a strong and credible opposition.
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"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Trump did not put the gun in the gunmans hands, he did that himself and chose to take innocent lives.
Certainly he needs to do something about gun control, but so does every politician in the US. The guy obviously has serious mental health challenges, he should not be able to get his hands on a water pistol, let alone something capable of taking so many lives so quickly.
We have had the personal responsibility conversation many times.
The only thing we ever agree on is that guns suck.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ This isn't about gun control, TP (well, it is, so much as all of these mass shootings in the US are, but that wasn't the subject of my post). It's about a politician being deliberately negligent in order to win votes, and winding up with blood on his hands as a result.
There are only really two possibilities here: either Trump doesn't realise that his rhetoric and that of his supporters and enablers is leading to increasing mobilisation of the far-right in America and increasing acts of violence, in which case incidents like this will keep happening; or he does realise and considers incidents like this just the collateral damage of a successful electoral strategy.
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | statements to their logical conclusion... |
This kind of reasoning allows anyone to "join the dots" between what someone actually says and the motives they wish to assign to that person.
Sanders criticises the GOP. Bernie Bro James Hodgkinson takes his "statements to their logical conclusion..." and attempts to assassinate a group of Republican senators. Bernie's fault?
The Greens attack the Australian Christian Lobby during the gay marriage debate. Jaden Duong takes their "statements to their logical conclusion..." and tries to car bomb the ACL headquarters in Canberra. The Greens fault?
The Beatles release the White Album and sing about Piggies and Helter Skelter. Charles Manson takes their "statements to their logical conclusion..." and orders a race war. The Beatles fault?
You attack TERFs on this board, I take your "statements to their logical conclusion..." and murder a bunch of feminists. Your fault? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It's not rocket science. We all know what 'scaremongering' means. If you're telling people the truth about something like climate change and not using irresponsible rhetoric in the process, then of course it's not your fault if some radical environmentalist decides to assassinate the head of Exxon. If, on the other hand, you're deliberately and strategically fanning the flames of anti-immigrant sentiment with falsehoods and exaggerations in order to get votes, in the process knowingly further aiding the radicalisation of angry right-wing racists with guns, then yes, you are at least somewhat responsible for the acts of violence from political extremists that follow.
Forgive me if I'm not sure about your sincerity or whether you're just trolling, but I find it hard to believe that we've reached a point in which people seriously don't comprehend the possibility of a link between inflammatory political rhetoric and political violence. Do you actually think that Trump's finger needs to be on the trigger for him to deserve any blame for this? Or do you just want to hit me with 100 more strained devil's-advocate analogies to get reckless, xenophobia-promoting political leaders off the hook?
There's a perfect word for these tactics: apologism.
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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^ again, this gets Trump re-elected.
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"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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Does Trump use intemperate language? Yes.
Is Trump contributing to a poisoned political atmosphere in the US? Definitely. But so are the Democrats and the legacy media (Fox, CNN etc.)
Is Trump responsible for a nutter with a gun murdering people? No.
| Quote: | | in the process knowingly further aiding the radicalisation of angry right-wing racists with guns |
Your proof of Trump knowingly causing radicalisation is?
| Quote: | | There's a perfect word for these tactics: apologism. |
There's a perfect word for your tactics: jumping to conclusions. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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That radicalisation is happening as a result of Trump's election (and the mainstreaming of his xenophobic doctrine) is perfectly evident: I mean, it's right here in this case if you're able to see it, as well as the murder during the Charlottesville protests and any number of recent acts of far-right vigilante violence. (And yes, Fox which basically serves as Trump's propaganda machine now does indeed deserve a large share of the blame for all of this.)
But rather than pointing to any number of acts of violence or instances of Trump using far-right slogans, mulling over anti-immigrant policy (remember when "banning Muslims" was considered the sort of thing only a right-wing extremist would suggest?), approvingly citing far-right commentary or equivocating when tasked with criticising neo-Nazis, let me ask you this: what effect do you think Trump's presidency has had on the US far right?
| MJ23 wrote: | | ^ again, this gets Trump re-elected. |
And not challenging or criticising his administration has what effect, exactly?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
Nah he's definitely right wing. That is beyound debate. I saw a photo of his car laden (not bin laden) with stickers and posters that would make the KKK proud.
Left wing nutters usually go after the bigger end of town.
You know the one's: I hunt & I vote..... |
The only thing you hunt with Glocks (of which he had a collection) are people. Anyhoo, the Democrats aren't exactly left wing anyway. The 2 party system over there is right and further right. |
That's true to a point. However, banning white males from owning guns especially right wing males as they seem to be the vast majority of killers / mass shooters is a good way to go to minimize the problem.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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thesoretoothsayer
Joined: 26 Apr 2017
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| Quote: | | I mean, it's right here in this case if you're able to see it |
This killer was able to see the migrant caravan as a jewish conspiracy to overthrow the white race. The fact that he, like you, was able to "join the dots" to come to a conclusion doesn't make his conclusion correct. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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That Trump and his admin / cronies have created the conditons necessary for these type of incidents to occur that is, the mass shooting in the synagogue and the pipe bombs etc is not even a debating point.
However to call him racist only gives him ammuntion.
To say that his daughter has coverted to Judaism & his son in law is jewish & moving the embassy to Jerusalem is a basis to say he is not responsible in any way for violence perpetrated against Jews is not only thick but serves as a deflection of his adminstrations (such that it is) role in creating a hostile environment for Jews.
Jews are not a homogeneous group for starters. They generally vote Democrat in the main although this has been changing slowly.
Does one really think that it is accidental that there have never been more sustained & increasing acts of anti-semitic violence in the US since Trump was on the scene? FFS. It has occured & has been enabled by Trump et al.
Trumps very late comments on Charlotteville were equivocal and provided encouragement to neo-nazi and other extremist rabble simply because he equivocated.
The other main issue has been the attacks on George Soros: they are classically anti-semitic & used by Trumps supporters and other right wing nutters across the globe from Trump supporters, Muslim groups, many right wing alleged christian groups etc, Dr Mahatir of Malaysia and but not limited to the extreme right wing head of Hungary.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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