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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: |
People can't afford housing at prior standards because their incomes and job security are in decline. Build more houses, and you get a sub-prime mortgage crisis because too few people can afford the mortgages those in the income spike at the top fund.
We've just tried building like the seven dwarfs on speed and steroids; did you miss how that turned out? Did anything about the GFC and empty suburbs from New Mexico to Cork look like a housing supply problem to anyone? |
Umm.... house prices in 2008 in Ireland and the US fell like a stone. And they're still relatively low by historic standards. And your conclusion from that is that supply doesn't matter ?
I'll say again what I said above. Real wages in the West are declining because globalisation has moved the relatively lower-skill (and even mid-skill) jobs to economies with lower real unit labour costs. Real wages are not declining in China or India or Vietnam.
Much of what is happening in western economies is explained by that historic change. It's not some small team of Blofelds sitting in a glass tower stroking the cat and manipulating the world. It's a technological and economic shift caused by communications technologies, the rise of English language, and the shift of China to capitalism, as you of all people must know.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Hardly surprising you posted that.
but the only thing we can do to change that is vote the right people in. Of course you need the right people there first, and yeah it ain't looking good.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Sat Jan 09, 2016 12:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Did you even read that article, or did you just glance at the title before writing your silly rant? As if I have to defend myself to you. What exactly is your great contribution to society that you feel in a position to lecture others on how to live their lives? Is it because you pay a few taxes? Cool, join the club. Sorry, but the only superiority complex I see here is yours.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | Did you even read that article, or did you just glance at the title before writing your silly rant? As if I have to defend myself to you. What exactly is your great contribution to society that you feel in a position to lecture others on how to live their lives? Is it because you pay a few taxes? Cool, join the club. Sorry, but the only superiority complex I see here is yours. |
No I read it and I've seen it or similar before. As I said at the bottom, I get it but it's not the real world. Fact is the world we live in we all have to, or need to if we want to get somewhere, work. I don't have a superiority complex. I just don't feel your in the position to be preaching to me about wealth distribution, taxes, etc, until you've achieved something. I don't need to tell you about what I contribute to society, because I don't go on about it all the tIme. ok my rant may have been in the wrong place, but its just based on this thread. it pisses me off. maybe i should put it there?
i saw this "if a healthy society is something we want, we have to act collectively. Since few people are active major shareholders, for the time being that task tends to fall to governments.
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Our current class of politicians has so far failed to even acknowledge our present circumstances, let alone articulate a credible vision for change. Many of them became rich from property investment. Our Prime Minister is a former banker."
this is what needs fixing. not double dipping taxes, either gifts or inheritance. fix the top end. not sure what you expect me to do about that?
obviously the manual labour sector needs to be retrained for a big part of it, but how, who, how much?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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But why do we need to 'fix' the top end? From the perspective of a clothing factory worker in Bangladesh you or David's financial position are as far away as Donald Trump or Malcolm Turnbull are from you. Unless you're willing to halve your wealth to lift that textiles worker up, then why should you expect a billionaire to do it for you (other than the obvious envy that drives these discussions).
If wealth was redistributed evenly around the world at this exact moment then everybody's net worth would be around $9000, how is that a possibly a good thing? If it's not a good idea to steal your wealth then why is it a good idea to steal someone's who simply has more? |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: |
People can't afford housing at prior standards because their incomes and job security are in decline. Build more houses, and you get a sub-prime mortgage crisis because too few people can afford the mortgages those in the income spike at the top fund.
We've just tried building like the seven dwarfs on speed and steroids; did you miss how that turned out? Did anything about the GFC and empty suburbs from New Mexico to Cork look like a housing supply problem to anyone? |
Umm.... house prices in 2008 in Ireland and the US fell like a stone. And they're still relatively low by historic standards. And your conclusion from that is that supply doesn't matter ?
I'll say again what I said above. Real wages in the West are declining because globalisation has moved the relatively lower-skill (and even mid-skill) jobs to economies with lower real unit labour costs. Real wages are not declining in China or India or Vietnam.
Much of what is happening in western economies is explained by that historic change. It's not some small team of Blofelds sitting in a glass tower stroking the cat and manipulating the world. It's a technological and economic shift caused by communications technologies, the rise of English language, and the shift of China to capitalism, as you of all people must know. |
Hundreds of thousands of empty homes are a "supply problem" in the same way inflation is a deflation problem  Are you smoking crack tonight? When economists talk of a "supply" problem, they're not talking about cases of *oversupply*, they're talking of the *exact* opposite: The underuse of productive capital, investment hindrances, production hindrances, regulatory hindrances, capital and resource bottlenecks, geography and labour misalignments, infrastructure bottlenecks and such. Shit that gets in the way of making optimal use of production capabilities.
And you're claiming empty suburbs of unwanted housing is a *supply* problem? A lack of tradespeople to build houses is an example of a supply problem. A lack of people with the capacity to buy a stock of housing is a *demand* problem. Again, no one calls it an "oversupply" problem for goodness' sake.
And on the "historic change" that's precisely been my argument *for years now* on this very forum. In other words, we need to hasten along a new transition, and it's the usual old fart yesterday men with their dated Cold War economic hymns blocking economic repositioning who are getting in the way.
These are the very same twats who led fake wars, crashed the world economy, gambled European stability to punish Greece like 1950s headmistresses; cause ongoing instability by pretending they're considering leaving the EU; pushed Australia deeper into mining even as commodity prices collapsed; funded and or entertained climate change denial trash even as international security, the fight against terrorism and tyrants, and a decline in competitiveness demanded hastened energy transition; lifted education costs even as workforces needed to transition along with the post-GFC economy; shudder at the thought of doing something really disciplined like dealing with negative gearing; mouthed on about international tax treaties in election campaigns *only to do nothing about them in office*; and have wasted everyone's time banging their detached heads together to come up with the following pultry, pitiful farce in response: Instituting a decline in living standards and raising VAT.
You will find these detached, witless f$%cks on both sides of politics, some wearing suits like Balloonhead and Count Clueless, and others in beige cardigans or sporting orange Tony Blair fake tan. But the one thing these hapless airheads have in common is they all live in 1960 and excel in sophomoric Tony Abbott university union debates, even as the challenges of 2016 speed beyond their horizon.
They all claim to be tough on terrorism even as their bumbling overseas meddling and refusal to get serious with terrorist-funding oil economies grows the terrorism threat, and causes the security budget to eat the education and health budgets.
And, of course, their cowardice when dealing with terrorist economies is only matched by their cowardice when dealing with the self-entitled whose multi millions and billions benefit from advanced economies, even as their lack of contribution and political capture is causing those economies to be dialed back in the face of international competition.
This is just a pitiful and infuriating state-of-affairs. I think I'll go and beat up on some Muslim children and pretend it's not happening.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Really get into the spirit, use a puppy to beat the muslim kids.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Oh god no not the puppy
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | But why do we need to 'fix' the top end? From the perspective of a clothing factory worker in Bangladesh you or David's financial position are as far away as Donald Trump or Malcolm Turnbull are from you. Unless you're willing to halve your wealth to lift that textiles worker up, then why should you expect a billionaire to do it for you (other than the obvious envy that drives these discussions).
If wealth was redistributed evenly around the world at this exact moment then everybody's net worth would be around $9000, how is that a possibly a good thing? If it's not a good idea to steal your wealth then why is it a good idea to steal someone's who simply has more? |
No one - not a single bleeding soul on Nick's ever and certainly not now - wants equal redistribution. Again, that's sophomoric Tony Abbott stuff. Just time-wasting red herringism.
People want the ability to compete well as individuals within an HQ social context, and that means some combination of transfers *and* productivity. It doesn't mean equality and it doesn't mean the elimination ofhigher earnings and wealth as an incentive. You're not in a 1960s novel arguing with Cold War communists; most people are quite happy with variation, plurality, a mix of outcomes and incentives, and so on - as long as they feel safe and facilitated, and on a positive trajectory.
Sometimes, to hold that plurality together, people with greater resources need to chip in more. This is especially the case when productivity is strong, but real wages are stagnating or in decline. It is also the case when being challenged by competitor countries who could very easily eat your collective lunch and trigger dangerous decline and social instability in your own society.
So, it's a strategic push and shove over degrees, not fundamentalist absolutes of right and wrong, or deserved and undeserved. If people are working hard and it's still not enough, they can't will additional resources into being as if by magic; obviously, they have to collect resources from somewhere, and that requires ongoing tweaks of the social contract.
Now is the time for a major tweak and strategic intervention.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | But why do we need to 'fix' the top end? From the perspective of a clothing factory worker in Bangladesh you or David's financial position are as far away as Donald Trump or Malcolm Turnbull are from you. Unless you're willing to halve your wealth to lift that textiles worker up, then why should you expect a billionaire to do it for you (other than the obvious envy that drives these discussions).
If wealth was redistributed evenly around the world at this exact moment then everybody's net worth would be around $9000, how is that a possibly a good thing? If it's not a good idea to steal your wealth then why is it a good idea to steal someone's who simply has more? |
It's a fair question, and we should indeed ask ourselves if we can justify living in a world with such vast disparities in standard of living. If it weren't for national borders, we would undoubtedly have to give up a great deal of our comfort and possessions so that the global poor could have better lives. It's a scary thought, and it should be.
There is nothing just about the fact that there is such surplus wealth in this country while people across the world are denied access to clean drinking water; good government management has precious little to do with it. We're like the aristocrats of Old Europe living in country manors while the plebs starve, essentially. That situation can't last forever.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | But why do we need to 'fix' the top end? From the perspective of a clothing factory worker in Bangladesh you or David's financial position are as far away as Donald Trump or Malcolm Turnbull are from you. Unless you're willing to halve your wealth to lift that textiles worker up, then why should you expect a billionaire to do it for you (other than the obvious envy that drives these discussions).
If wealth was redistributed evenly around the world at this exact moment then everybody's net worth would be around $9000, how is that a possibly a good thing? If it's not a good idea to steal your wealth then why is it a good idea to steal someone's who simply has more? |
It's a fair question, and we should indeed ask ourselves if we can justify living in a world with such vast disparities in standard of living. If it weren't for national borders, we would undoubtedly have to give up a great deal of our comfort and possessions so that the global poor could have better lives. It's a scary thought, and it should be.
There is nothing just about the fact that there is such surplus wealth in this country while people across the world are denied access to clean drinking water; good government management has precious little to do with it. We're like the aristocrats of Old Europe living in country manors while the plebs starve, essentially. That situation can't last forever. |
Yep, them pesky national boundaries are at fault.
FMD you can talk some bullshit.
national boundaries are obviously what keeps tens or hundreds of millions of Indians in abject poverty or working as servants for the Indian middle class in a country with a multitude of billionaires.
How bout good old communist (coff) China, with a metric fuckload of seriously wealthy people, a growing middle class, a government building cities that no one lives in and hundreds of millions of people living hand to mouth.
You want to argue disparity in standards of living, have a look at some of those countries governments.
Zimbabwe has really kicked on since they booted out the white fellas and redistributed all that wealth, hasn't it? 1% of the country would be living the high life while the rest starve.
We're like the aristocrats of old Europe? Really? FMD I must have misplaced my servants again. JEEVES, JEEVES, GET IN HERE.
I'll try to remember I'm a European Aristcrat on Monday when I go back to work. I'm sure that'll make the 11 hour days (inc travel) much more enjoyable, and knowing I have so much surplus wealth, wow.
God I thought you were smarter than to peddle such idealistic garbage.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ Yep
Corruption and outright theft by Governments and officials in for example Africa and Asia has seen buggar all of the wealth of the country or International Aid etc etc etc go any where near helping the poor citizens of those countries - so their " leaders" enjoy the high life and squirrel away sqillions whilst the poor continue to not have adequate sanitation, clean drinking water, education or health care!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Needs popcorn
WAITER!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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