Gender and domestic violence

[stui magpie]

^



I bet he copped it for that

[HAL]

What is your real name?

[David]

Calls for Latham to be sacked after making good arguments about domestic violence that challenge the dominant paradigm:

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2016-01-22/mark-latham-under-fire-for-triple-m-podcast-domestic-violence/7107650

[stui magpie]

I heard Latham talk briefly on MMM last week outlining his views. A fair bit of what he said was correct, if unpopular,

I'm in no position to verify or dispute the "facts" he quoted and I dare say the biggest problem people have isn't just what he said but how he said it. Sounded like he was trying to build an audience and a profile so was deliberately provocative in his approach. It worked in that he got attention and caused discussion.

Those people calling for his sacking are the same people, the professionally outraged, who inhabit Twitter. The very noisy minority fringe.

IIRC he was saying that Rosie Batty is letting down the cause by spreading the misleading message that all men are potential abusers and all women are potential victims, blaming the far left feminist movement for putting the blame on all men.

He quoted some demographic data from the ABS which was that IIRC something like 1% of households suffer domestic violence (still a large number when you count as opposed to use percentages) and that the amount of abuse was dramatically higher in indigenous and poor communities than in the middle class communities. He then talked about men feeling helpless, stuck in poverty in these environments and basically taking out their frustrations on the missus. He made it sound like a legitimate form of stress relief (which wasn't how I interpreted his intent) which is what has fired up the twitterati the most IMO.

I always thought he was a bit of a dick, but after hearing him speak I'd be willing to listen or read some more of his perspectives. He's definitely challenging the agenda.

[Skids]

This is probably the best of Latham....


6/7/2013

Kevin Rudd's a lunatic, says Mark Latham


FORMER Labor leader Mark Latham says Kevin Rudd is a "once in a century egomaniac" who should have been expelled from the party, as the former prime minister stokes leadership tensions once again.

Mr Rudd stole the limelight from Julia Gillard again today while campaigning in Geelong with local MPs Darren Cheeseman and Richard Marles.

But, after encouraging leadership speculation for days in repeated media apparances, he reiterated his vow of March this year that there were “no circumstances” in which he would lead the Labor Party again.

Mr Latham told radio 2UE that Mr Rudd was a “lunatic” who was “addicted to media attention”.
“Rudd knows that all of this is damaging the party. He is a lunatic. I look at him on the TV and I have to say `this bloke's nuts',” he said.

“I mean this guy is a once in a century egomaniac. You'll never see his like again as long as we live in Australian politics.

“They should have expelled him three years ago, quite frankly. He is an absolute nightmare for them.”

Mr Latham ridiculed Mr Rudd's direction to Labor MPs this week to “pull their heads in” and focus on keeping Tony Abbott out of The Lodge.

[David]

[David]

Jimmy Bartel has sat down for an interview about the domestic violence he grew up with:

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/jimmy-bartel-speaks-out-about-the-domestic-violence-he-experienced-growing-up/news-story/608e5949576f43fb3a5f29ea9dc4d76e

It's a saddening and kind of horrifying story, and an unequivocally good thing that he's able to tell it and bring attention to the issue. But it's also a story with very black and white characters: a heroic mum and a useless, spiteful bully of a dad with no interest in the people around him. The stuff about alcohol and gambling debts helps explain a little about why he was the way he was, but there's no question that he's the villain of the piece.

That's no slight on Bartel. I have no doubt that there are men out there like this. But to properly understand and address this issue, I think we need to hear about the more complex stories of family violence too; the ones in which the perpetrator could be both loving and abusive, or the ones in which the family unit remained functional despite the violence going on.

The point is, we shouldn't try to distance ourselves from this issue by trying to put perpetrators in an entirely different category of human being ("not real men"), because that doesn't help the perpetrators reform and it doesn't help the occasional abusers see that they are also causing harm. I'm sure many who've hit their partners are reading this piece thinking "thank god I'm not like that monster". The fact is, we are all capable of causing harm to others; the crucial thing is recognising the consequences of violence on ourselves and other people and internalising that as an effective deterrent. While I would like to see more of an attempt to humanise Bartel's father, stories like this are an effective way of getting that message across.

[think positive]

[David]

I was thinking of your experiences when I was reading that article, TP – Bartel's father and yours seem to have a number of things in common. Thanks for sharing this; it's a valuable insight into the way these dynamics can operate.

By "story", I wasn't in any way doubting the veracity of Bartel's recollections, I was just using it in the sense of "life experience". Here are three more stories of domestic violence:

A close friend of mine grew up in Israel, a deeply religious country that, like anywhere else, had its cohort of wayward youth. My friend was one of those. As a teenager, she was already getting done for petty crimes, having sex (with boys and girls) and getting high off anything she could get her hands on. Her father was a fairly easygoing guy; an atheist teacher who'd wind up his neighbours by doing things like having barbecues in his backyard on Yom Kippur (which, if you don't know, is a 24-hour fast in which religious Jews aren't allowed to eat or drink anything). I met him when he last visited Melbourne and stayed at my friend's; he's one of the most gentle and intelligent guys you could meet. When my friend was 15, and he found out what she'd been up to – particularly, sleeping with other girls – one night, he beat her within an inch of her life. She said he just went crazy, and only stopped when she called the police. It took her many years to forgive him for that, and even longer for him to apologise.

That was just one time. But it was an incident of domestic violence. It was completely unacceptable. In an ideal world he would have been charged for it.

When my friend was quite ill a couple of months ago, he dropped everything, took his annual leave and came down to Australia to stay with her for two weeks and look after her. She is not frightened of him in any way, shape or form. He is not your father or Bartel's father, but he is a perpetrator of domestic violence.

My partner had a similar incident with her father as an adult (in her case, he smashed her head repeatedly into the bathroom sink), and she also called the police on him. She's seen him slap her mother, too. He's a perpetrator of domestic violence, but he doesn't fit the profile of the ogre in Bartel's story. He and his wife have now been together for over 35 years, and she doesn't fit the profile of a battered woman. They have a dysfunctional relationship, but also a loving one.

And then there's me. My experiences of domestic violence aren't as bad as some other people's. My parents believed in corporal punishment, and so we were smacked a lot as children, primarily by my mother with her hand or a wooden spoon. When I was about 9 or 10, they decided to push their Biblical literalism to the next level and actually introduce an actual "rod" into their regime, which in this case was a large bamboo stick. Being hit across the back of the legs with this was incredibly painful, and we all dreaded it. It was somehow worse when our father did it, though; not because he put more strength into it or anything, but because it was primarily our mother's role to discipline, not his. It felt transgressive – abusive – when he did it. And then there was the time when he flew into a rage, hit me across the face, shoved me against a wall and then took me to another room to be belted. I was 12 then.

Some people won't see any of that as domestic violence; just parents 'disciplining' their children (many used to see husbands beating their wives this way, too). I don't know. All I know is that, for all the strain in my relationship with him, my father is not a monster.

I have never hit anyone in anger. (Well, apart from my older brother once when I was a kid, but he deserved it. ) I have never even once felt the urge to lash out at Lola physically. I just don't have the temperament for it. But I don't think I'm a fundamentally different human being to all the domestic violence perpetrators in the examples above, and I don't think I'm a fundamentally different human being to your father or Bartel's, either. Human beings are all flawed in their own ways; they all have their good points and bad points; all have reasons for why they behave the way they do. What we must condemn is the act of domestic violence; not because the person who does it is evil, or "not a real man", or whatever, but because it causes so much harm. That's all I'm trying to get at here.

[think positive]

Fair points. THANKYOU

The one of, the nutty father, why was he angry, because she was sleeping around or sleeping with girls? Juniors friend parents had a similar reaction to a relationship the girl had with a girl, but they didn't beat her up. Her fathers is an alcoholic, I don't think he is physically abusive but certainly, verbally.nshe is the kid that lived with me last year for a couple of weeks. Her family also acts as the other family you mention, like everything is ok most of the time. It may look like a loving relationship from the outside, but I'd lay odds it's not. The abused one will feel powerless in some way. And the children will know. It's not healthy.

All of those parents should be spoken to by police, and maybe charged. Including yours. Religious brainwashing is not an acceptable excuse for beating children. I did smack my children when they were little, usually a smack on the hand or if they pushed it a smack on the bottom. I would never hit the. With an object or a closed fist. Yes I left a red hand mark once or twice on their bum. I remember one time me eldest was deliberately hurting the younger, and didn't respond to no, hand smack, and go to your room. What she was doing was dangerous so she got a good smack on the bottom.

I remember being out once and a bunch of kids were going nuts on those bars they used to have for queues in target. They were hanging on them, playing chasey. I had a baby in the pram, three year old going crazy, I yelled at her, and then loudly said, anyone want to call the cops do it now, but I'm smacking that kid! I grabbed her, smacked her bum and said 'cut it out NOW!" She did. I saw the smiles! A little old lady came over and said its good to see someone still disciplines their kids!

There is a line. Your parents stepped over it. That's not love. That's abuse. And you would have been cringing at the thought of that stick. That's wrong. I smacked my kids occasionally, but I always always explained myself.

An example of the ridiculousness or child rearing today: I went to Bunnings at about noon, it was packed. I walk around a corner of the aisle, and two teens about 15/16 were tossing a balloon back and fourth, and running back to catch it, without looking, the boy smashed into me and knocked me back, I said 'idiot'! No apology, nothing. I walk down the aisle. Next thing said brats and their parent come down the aisle, the father looks at me and says did you call them idiots, I said yes, he says they were just having fun, I said he wasn't watching and he barrelled back into me, this isn't the place for that. He says they were just having a bit of fun, I said if I was a little old lady he could have flattened me, they were not looking what they were doing, he starts walking. And he went off at me, gutless pig, I said controlled but firmly (we had quite a crowd by then) no wonder they have no respect, their parents are idiots too!

F it was me I would have said to my kid "what did you do?" And if I had got the response that I gave when confronted I would have demanded the kids apologise! But no, I'm supposed to get bowled over and just take it because they were having a bit of fun!

The problem now is, due to over doing the punishment in years gone by, now there is none! So many kids are $£$%^%%$ monsters! No respect for their peers, parents, or anyone else! Some of juniors friends are mind bogglingly bad mannered. Two no longer show their faces, I'd had enough.

[King Monkey]

What did you do to get the stick??

[think positive]

Sorry as for the last point, not evil, not a real man, my dad is just a nasty sad pathetic jealous human being, I don't think he has any redeeming features left even when he does something nice, something always comes in to ruin it. A harsh word. A 'funny' read hurtful, dig. Is he evil? Maybe not in the psychopathic mass murder mole, but he was an evil spiteful father, husband.

For me it all goes back to teaching respect, for each other, for themselves, appreciating the wants and needs of others, not just your own. Thinking about what you say, how your words can hurt.

[David]

[stui magpie]

I've related these stories before but corporal punishment for me at home ended when I retaliated.

Mum was the chief disciplinarian, favoured implement the cord off the electric kettle until the time she took a swing at me, I caught it, snatched it off her and gave her a whack around the legs with it.

The only time Dad really tried to lay a hand to me was the last. I was 17, being aggravating, argued with him hard and he came at me with the fire poker. Long story short, I decked him. hard

I was a father young and immature myself so made a lot of mistakes in the early years but the kids all still talk to me and come back willingly to visit so there's no hard feelings.

[King Monkey]

Did the threat of the stick ever deter you and/or your siblings from playing up??

I must admit, I've smacked my kids. Never used weapons though, and never with enough force to cause physical damage.
When the message isn't getting through using other means, sometimes a bit of a hard lesson and/or a shock tactic is required. Then the threat of a little sting is always there when there is a choice to do the right or wrong thing.
It has worked for us, I haven't had to actually give the 9 year old a tap for at least 5 years. He knows his boundaries. He's a good kid.

What has worked well for us, is certainly not a one-size-fits-all policy. I'm only saying it has worked for us.

I'm so proud of my eldest boy the way he's carrying himself at the moment.
I was so chuffed at the compliments we were getting from our mates about what a well-behaved, respectful, helpful boy he is; on the camping trip we just got back from. Joined in with a fair bit of the adult activities, and maintained a respectful cheekiness!

He's got some little sh** friends that do the wrong things all the time, (poor kids, they've got sh** parents actually), but he's a bit of leader with his right-from-wrong attitude.
I'm quite worried for the future actually, really scared about the prevalence of things like Ice and the growing number of "gangs" and the like.
Consequences for actions is a lesson that needs to be taught at a young age. I'm disturbed when I see a kid walk all over their parents. They're the ones that won't listen when they're sat down and told - this, that and the other are dangerous and to stay away.