| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| Oops. Too much data. |
|
|
|
 |
David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | If killing one guy in a war plane is disgusting, what do you consider bombing civilians?
I'd love to know what the death toll of innocents in Syria is as a result of Russian air strikes right now. |
It's not 'killing one guy in a war plane', it's shooting at an ejected pilot who is descending via parachute. It's a war crime.
I'd say the Russian civilian death toll is significantly less than Islamic State's tally and they're bombing military targets, not performing massacres for the hell of it. |
^ Does that make it okay then? Just collateral damage, I guess.
Funny how selective outrage can be.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| I'm glad you got a laugh out of it. |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Morrigu wrote: | "A US official told Al Jazeera that the penetration of Turkish air space by the Russian jet lasted "only a matter of seconds" as it crossed a roughly 3km wide section of Turkey that took only 20 seconds to traverse."
http://www.msn.com/en-au/news/world/nato-urges-calm-after-turkey-downs-russian-jet/ar-BBnp1qx?OCID=HPCDHP
Even though it seems Russia have strayed into Turkish airspace a few times recently - if the 20 seconds is correct that seems a massive over reaction from Turkey to shoot the jet down!! Especially given that they don't seem to have a problem violating another country's airspace.
"At least 20 Turkish military aircraft have entered Greek airspace. The Turkish jets were spotted in a number of areas of the Aegean Sea, where they stayed for several minutes. Five groups of 14 aircraft, as well as six separate planes have committed 15 violations and 31 other violations," the Greek newspaper wrote."
http://www.pravdareport.com/news/world/27-10-2015/132421-turkey_greece_airspace-0/#sthash.Y2K1nclf.dpuf
I read somewhere ( I cant link as I have forgotten where I read it DOH!) that the Turkmen were protecting daesh oil tankers when the Russian jets appeared and then the Turks blew em out of the sky - that makes more sense as a Turkish motive to me! With every passing day I am believing more and more that the Turkish Gov have done little to stem the flow of foreign fighters into Syria or let them back into Europe.
RIP pilots - I reckon you were better off to be shot on the way down than land in the hands of this backward barbaric mob!
Edited cause I should have said the Turkish Government - spent some wonderful time in Turkey and the country and the people were brilliant !! |
The Turks have certainly been playing both sides in this conflict and I'm no fan of their current government, but to call them backward and barbaric is a bit much. In many respects they're a lot more progressive than many of their neighbours in the gulf and the levant (and Putin's Russia isn't exactly a model of liberal democracy right now).
They're far from perfect, but as with Iran, it's pretty important to have them onside right now.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
|
|
|
|
|
Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | The Turks have certainly been playing both sides in this conflict and I'm no fan of their current government, but to call them backward and barbaric is a bit much. |
Wasn't what I meant and wasn't till I read it back that I realised that is what I was suggesting - was in the process of editing when you quoted the post.
I meant the terrorists of either side - I've spent some great time in Turkey and the country and people were mostly brilliant!!!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | If killing one guy in a war plane is disgusting, what do you consider bombing civilians?
I'd love to know what the death toll of innocents in Syria is as a result of Russian air strikes right now. |
It's not 'killing one guy in a war plane', it's shooting at an ejected pilot who is descending via parachute. It's a war crime.
I'd say the Russian civilian death toll is significantly less than Islamic State's tally and they're bombing military targets, not performing massacres for the hell of it. |
^ Does that make it okay then? Just collateral damage, I guess.
Funny how selective outrage can be. |
Almost as funny as false equivalence.
There are many significant points of difference between the two acts. The killing of a man in a parachute can have no purpose other than murder. The bombing of Raqqa, however, may be necessary in order to fulfil a purpose which is itself moral, namely the eradication of a regime that has a high place in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human brutality and inhumanity, and which will kill many more people if left unchecked. Both are problematic acts, but these are very different moral questions and I think it's wrong to equate them so simply.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
You don't think that one might warrant at least a fraction of the disgust? Or in the world of morality, are we only interested in motives, not consequences?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | You don't think that one might warrant at least a fraction of the disgust? Or in the world of morality, are we only interested in motives, not consequences? |
I'm not an ethical philosopher, but I think that what matters first is sincere good will. Without good will, I cannot think of a case where we would describe action as moral. That's the starting point in distinguishing between these two things. The idea of "good will" seems to rest on cultural assumptions about "the good", but as a conservative, I'm at ease with that.
Once you have good will, then I think negative consequences are really a matter of responsible calculation, proportionality relative to the good you intend, and mitigation. If these are sufficiently neglected, then arguably they bring into question your good will (cf Iraq 2). A bombing campaign where civilian deaths cannot be avoided - especially when inaction leads to its own death toll of innocents - is really a matter of these consequential calculations.
I have my doubts that the above figures largely on Mr Putin's agenda, but it is at least arguable. I do not think that shooting a man on a parachute meets any of those tests. At times like this, these distinctions matter.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| When? Thanks I like your will then he or she think negative consequences a matter of responsible calculation proportionality relative to the good you intend and mitigation are too. |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | If killing one guy in a war plane is disgusting, what do you consider bombing civilians?
I'd love to know what the death toll of innocents in Syria is as a result of Russian air strikes right now. |
It's not 'killing one guy in a war plane', it's shooting at an ejected pilot who is descending via parachute. It's a war crime.
I'd say the Russian civilian death toll is significantly less than Islamic State's tally and they're bombing military targets, not performing massacres for the hell of it. |
^ Does that make it okay then? Just collateral damage, I guess.
Funny how selective outrage can be. |
Almost as funny as false equivalence.
There are many significant points of difference between the two acts. The killing of a man in a parachute can have no purpose other than murder. The bombing of Raqqa, however, may be necessary in order to fulfil a purpose which is itself moral, namely the eradication of a regime that has a high place in the dark and lamentable catalogue of human brutality and inhumanity, and which will kill many more people if left unchecked. Both are problematic acts, but these are very different moral questions and I think it's wrong to equate them so simply. |
Shooting a soldier while parachuting to ground is, as you say a war crime.
Deliberately bombing a civilian target, as terrorists such as ISIS do, is/should be similar.
Deliberately bombing a "military" target (or in this case and ISIS command post ) and having some nearby civilians killed is not the same thing, anymore than Murder and manslaughter are the same thing.
People are just as dead, the key difference is intent.
Civilians are killed in all wars, the main difference now at least for Western society is to try to minimise civilian casualties rather than maximising them.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Personally, I'm not convinced that the Russians are doing all they can to minimise civilian casualties. Not to mention the legitimate non-ISIS fighters they're deliberately killing in the south-east Syria.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I'm sure they're all personally shattered at their failure to convince you, particularly considering you could reasonably expect the left wing propaganda news sites you frequent to provide a balanced view point. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | Personally, I'm not convinced that the Russians are doing all they can to minimise civilian casualties. Not to mention the legitimate non-ISIS fighters they're deliberately killing in the south-east Syria. |
Are you convinced Isis are? ~ oh wait, that's what they are doing deliberately, killing maiming, torturong, civilians
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| Oh I get it. |
|
|
|
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
