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| What should we do about ISIS? |
| Withdraw all Western forces and hope for the best |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Deploy a large number of ground forces into Iraq and Syria to defeat them, then rebuild both countries |
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41% |
[ 5 ] |
| Negotiate with ISIS to stop further attacks and expansion of the group |
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0% |
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| Allow Middle Eastern countries and militia groups to deal with the problem |
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8% |
[ 1 ] |
| It's too late! ISIS can't be stopped. |
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8% |
[ 1 ] |
| Containment from the air but no ground force invasion in Iraq and Syria (current policy) |
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8% |
[ 1 ] |
| Other (please explain) |
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33% |
[ 4 ] |
| No Idea |
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[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 12 |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Your dragging up statements from decades ago to smear UK Labour politicians merely underlines what I said in the previous post.
The Right wingers of this world don't want debate, all they want to do is hurl mud till some sticks!
Fwitw I consider Bobby Sands an activist hero who died "fighting" peacefully for what he believed in.
http://www.biography.com/people/bobby-sands-20941955#early-years
| Bobby Sands wrote: | . Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
They won't break me because the desire for freedom, and the freedom of the Irish people, is in my heart.
They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| 3.14159 wrote: | Your dragging up statements from decades ago to smear UK Labour politicians merely underlines what I said in the previous post.
The Right wingers of this world don't want debate, all they want to do is hurl mud till some sticks!
Fwitw I consider Bobby Sands an activist hero who died "fighting" peacefully for what he believed in.
http://www.biography.com/people/bobby-sands-20941955#early-years
| Bobby Sands wrote: | . Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
They won't break me because the desire for freedom, and the freedom of the Irish people, is in my heart.
They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken. |
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You read the words spoken by McDonnell and Livingstone, and twisting the facts will not help you. He referenced the "bombs and bullets", not your "peaceful activity" diversion. If you think the bombs that murdered ordinary people made them "heroes", then presumably nothing I can say will persuade you to a better place.
I am only thankful that most good, ordinary people despise that position and will never vote for politicians who sympathise with terrorists. This is not a matter of Left vs Right. Most left-wing people have the decency to abjure that kind of sympathy.
From Wikipedia re the Warrington Bombing 1993 (one among many):
Three-year-old Johnathan Ball died at the scene. He had been in town with his babysitter.[1] The second victim, 12-year-old Tim Parry, received the full force of the blast and was gravely wounded. He died on 25 March 1993 when doctors switched his life support machine off, having asked permission to do so from his family, after tests had found minimal brain activity.[6] Fifty-four other people were injured, four of them seriously.[5]
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| 3.14159 wrote: | Your dragging up statements from decades ago to smear UK Labour politicians merely underlines what I said in the previous post.
The Right wingers of this world don't want debate, all they want to do is hurl mud till some sticks!
Fwitw I consider Bobby Sands an activist hero who died "fighting" peacefully for what he believed in.
http://www.biography.com/people/bobby-sands-20941955#early-years
| Bobby Sands wrote: | . Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.
They won't break me because the desire for freedom, and the freedom of the Irish people, is in my heart.
They have nothing in their whole imperial arsenal that can break the spirit of one Irishman who doesn't want to be broken. |
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No he $Ł$%^%%$ didn't die fighting peacefully for what he believed in. He died fighting for better conditions in prison, the place he was put for his part in blowing up innocent civilians going about their daily lives, unless of course you think a furniture factory is meant to be a battle field. Activist hero! He was a $Ł$%^%%$ dirty stinking terrorist. IRA were/are terrorists, not soldiers, and they killed and maimed a hell of a lot of IRISH, not just British folk. How can anyone stick them on a pedestal?
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Your right Jo, there is no excuse for killing innocent people.
The irony is that Cameron is using quotes from long ago to discredit (read character assassinate) Labour M.P's because they want to sit down and talk with all parties and stop more innocent people being killed.
FMD the Assad regime is dropping bombs on it's own people because he would not step down when the Arab Spring swept over Syria.
He was actively helping IS when the problem was in Iraq and is using it as an excuse to exterminate the Syrian Opposition Party (Who, btw absolutely hate IS) and hold on to power no matter what the cost to Syria.
Yep "Drop more bombs" is the prefered 3 word slogan from those too stupid/stubborn to learn the lessons history is trying to teach us!
| Quote: | | Bloody Sunday – sometimes called the Bogside Massacre – was an incident on 30 January 1972 in the Bogside area of Derry, Northern Ireland. British soldiers shot 26 unarmed civilians during a protest march against internment. Fourteen people died: thirteen were killed outright, while the death of another man four-and-a-half months later was attributed to his injuries. Many of the victims were shot while fleeing from the soldiers and some were shot while trying to help the wounded. Two protesters were also injured when they were run down by army vehicles |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| 3.14159 wrote: | Your right Jo, there is no excuse for killing innocent people.
The irony is that Cameron is using quotes from long ago to discredit (read character assassinate) Labour M.P's because they want to sit down and talk with all parties and stop more innocent people being killed.
FMD the Assad regime is dropping bombs on it's own people because he would not step down when the Arab Spring swept over Syria.
He was actively helping IS when the problem was in Iraq and is using it as an excuse to exterminate the Syrian Opposition Party (Who, btw absolutely hate IS) and hold on to power no matter what the cost to Syria.
Yep "Drop more bombs" is the prefered 3 word slogan from those too stupid/stubborn to learn the lessons history is trying to teach us!
| Quote: | | Bloody Sunday – sometimes called the Bogside Massacre – was an incident on 30 January 1972 in the Bogside area of Derry, Northern Ireland. British soldiers shot 26 unarmed civilians during a protest march against internment. Fourteen people died: thirteen were killed outright, while the death of another man four-and-a-half months later was attributed to his injuries. Many of the victims were shot while fleeing from the soldiers and some were shot while trying to help the wounded. Two protesters were also injured when they were run down by army vehicles |
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Bloody Sunday was properly and belatedly investigated in the Savile inquiry and David Cameron rightly apologised for it. The difference, however, is that I'm not claiming the paratroopers who fired that day were "heroes". It's a perfectly principled position to demur at the idea of dropping bombs on ISIL. It's not a principled position to consider the men who did Guildford, Warrington, Birmingham, the knee-cappings, the execution-style killings, the punishment beatings and the wide campaign of murder and thuggery "heroes".
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ Staying way way way away from this discussion!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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And well you should! We don't want none of them Micks and Pommy bastards bringing their old country conflicts over here. They should all go back to where they came from. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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I should really let this go but I don't like words put in my mouth and opinions (dressed as facts) shoved down my throat!.
| Mugwump wrote: | | You read the words spoken by McDonnell and Livingstone, and twisting the facts will not help you. He referenced the "bombs and bullets", not your "peaceful activity" diversion. If you think the bombs that murdered ordinary people made them "heroes", then presumably nothing I can say will persuade you to a better place. |
I've twisted no facts but you've twisted the "quote".
Dying of starvation is hardly "peacfull" but it certainly isn't in a hail of bullets and bombs.
I said he "DIED" fighting peacefully for what he believed in, what he did before that some call fighting for freedom, others call terrorism.
It depends on your view, ie is the USA a terrorist state because it was founded by "terrorists", citizens who took up for their rights not to be governed by a foreign country (in this case Britain...again) ?
Or is the Good Oil USA (Ltd) the bulwark of Western democracy, supporter of people* fighting for their freedom the world over? (as if!).
*Ooops, that was a typo, I meant fighting for the Freedom of Multinationals the world over.
| Mugwump wrote: | | Bloody Sunday was properly and belatedly investigated in the Savile inquiry and David Cameron rightly apologised for it. |
It took 12 years (after decades of pleas by the families) and cost 400 million (pounds). Blair instigated the enquiry and Cameron said we're sorry.
It found that 1 para had acted alone were entirely to blame and the British army blameless.
(Were any of the paras charged, did they do time, were the families of the victim's families compensated?)
I thought paying back the $$$ was the sincerest form of apology, stihl it's a hell of a lot of money to pay for a few gallons "white-wash" and a packet of Kleenex!
| Mugwump wrote: | | The difference, however, is that I'm not claiming the paratroopers who fired that day were "heroes". It's a perfectly principled position to demur at the idea of dropping bombs on ISIL. It's not a principled position to consider the men who did Guildford, Warrington, Birmingham, the knee-cappings, the execution-style killings, the punishment beatings and the wide campaign of murder and thuggery "heroes". |
Your a champion word twister of the highest degree!
I said...I consider BOBBY Sands a hero for the wae he died.
The idea that I support the IRA, Guildford, Warrington, execution style killings are all figments of your wild Murdoch inspired imagination.
| Mugwump wrote: |
I am only thankful that most good, ordinary people despise that position and will never vote for politicians who sympathise with terrorists. This is not a matter of Left vs Right. Most left-wing people have the decency to abjure that kind of sympathy. |
Robert Sands M.P
Game, set and match!
Last edited by 3.14159 on Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:17 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| David wrote: | | And well you should! We don't want none of them Micks and Pommy bastards bringing their old country conflicts over here. They should all go back to where they came from. |
Nah not even remotely an issue cause we assimilate and don't force Aussies to drink warm beer and eat black pudding 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Yep. I always behave in socially unacceptable ways. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Pi, there are some issues where the gulf in understanding and meaning is too great for serious argument. I loathe the IRA, its kneecappers, its mother-and-child killers, its deliberate and calculated torture and bombing and executions of defenceless people. Sands was an IRA man.
I have great sympathy for the Irish Catholic cause, and their many grievances. I come (on my mother's side) from that background, and I know it well. But the mafia-IRA ? Not in my name. Never. You say that you consider Sands a hero for the way he died, and it is not an apologia on your part for the IRA? Sorry, but that makes no sense at all. Since when does the method of dying, or even just dying for a cause, make you a hero ? No, that evasion won't work. No stand made for such a foul organisation could ever be less than shameful.
Google the iconic picture of Father Alec Reid giving the last rites over the mangled body of Corporal David Howes. That priest represents heroism and human dignity of a kind that your dead bomber Mr Sands and his IRA mates never knew.
Oh, and as a last point - Sands "died fighting peacefully" (your words) because he was in prison, and they don't give you guns there. When he wasn't in prison, he was last seen bombing a furniture shop, after which he was arrested in a car that had 6 weapons in it, at least two of which were used to wound two policemen. Your idea of "fighting peacefully" and mine are very different.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Has it really got to a point where we need to start thinking about negotiating as one way to halt the progress of the group?
I still think it's a crazy idea, but I do understand where he comes from especially in regards to citing past examples where governments have negotiated with groups that would be considered terrorist or enemy organisations. I also like the fact that the author understands that much of the grievances from ISIS are domestic such as the sectarian divides between Sunni and Shia.
However in saying that, would ISIS ever negotiate with its enemies in return? Because it's all well and good to attempt to head down that path if governments within the Western and Arab world wanted to do that but I cannot see ISIS as the type to negotiate! Their brutal tactics and ambitious ways to re-establish a caliphate and spread it across the Arab world suggests otherwise.
Also at least the author acknowledges that fighting and negotiating and are not mutually exclusive and both will be necessary if such a direction is undertaken.
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Fascinating article from the Atlantic about the reasons why people join ISIS using interviews from 49 fighters who have defected or been captured.
The full article is in the link below but here are some excerpts of the article. Establishing the reasons as to why people join ISIS may provide governments (Western and/or Arab) to find solutions to counter the problem without necessarily bombing the group into oblivion which doesn't necessarily defeat the ideology they espouse.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/12/why-people-join-isis/419685/
| Quote: | The Quantum researchers grouped the fighters into nine categories, based on the reasons they gave for joining ISIS or other extremist groups. They are:
Status seekers: Intent on improving “their social standing” these people are driven primarily by money “and a certain recognition by others around them.”
Identity seekers: Prone to feeling isolated or alienated, these individuals “often feel like outsiders in their initial unfamiliar/unintelligible environment and seek to identify with another group.” Islam, for many of these provides “a pre-packaged transnational identity.”
Revenge seekers: They consider themselves part of a group that is being repressed by the West or someone else.
Redemption seekers: They joined ISIS because they believe it vindicates them, or ameliorates previous sinfulness.
Responsibility seekers: Basically, people who have joined or support ISIS because it provides some material or financial support for their family.
Thrill seekers: Joined ISIS for adventure.
Ideology seekers: These want to impose their view of Islam on others.
Justice seekers: They respond to what they perceive as injustice. “The justice seekers’ ‘raison d’ętre’ ceases to exist once the perceived injustice stops,” the report says.
Death seekers: These people “have most probably suffered from a significant trauma/loss in their lives and consider death as the only way out with a reputation of martyr instead of someone who has committed suicide.”
The nine potential identities are not equally represented among the survey pool. |
| Quote: | Why They Fight
The number of people among 49 current and former members of extremist groups in Iraq and Syria influenced by each factor in joining the fight (George LeVines / Defense One. Data: Quantum Communications) |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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