Attacks in Paris
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| pietillidie wrote: | Ah Morrigu, one is torn because emotionally what you feel makes perfect sense in your context, and what you're seeing is beyond the pale; but, how you understand the problem makes no sense at all.
Of course these cultural ideas are nonsense; all cultural ideas are. But the violent use of power is a universal human genetic fact. It is given expression under certain conditions through whatever grim set of ideas are available at the time.
In Christian Latin America, the women would be raped for being putas deserving of their fate for shaming their familias every bit the same. In Confucian Korea, the same justification can come from atheism, and is given ample opportunity to thrive in a culture which doesn't like to get involved in the affairs of those beyond their family.
Violent, oppressive ideas are genetic in our species, and they thrive wherever a power gap and dysfunction are found.
Criticise absurd ideas all you like; no one is questioning the breadth of idiocy across the earth, for goodness' sake. Rail against deranged acts of barbaric violence if that helps, despite them being obviously so.
But at some point do some science to make sure you don't take up membership in yet another set of really bad ideas. |
So what your saying is a lot of society's let men get away with rape, hmm, just what I said, re my India etc post, though, obviously, cos some think I'm stupid I should have explained that I knew they were not Muslims! And also as Morrigu said above.
Just like what's happened in France, the atrocitys were not committed by Muslims, in the name of anyone, they were committed by terrorists, using ideology as an excuse to justify barbaric unlawful behaviour to gain power and control, we get that,
They can call themselves whatever they want, fact remains they are criminals, terrorists, mercenaries.
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think positive
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| David wrote: | Fair enough, Morrigu. For what it's worth, I think there are a lot of stupid things about Islam, not least the fact that it requires belief in an imaginary friend. We need to feel free to say these things, and never confuse criticism - even mockery - of a religion with bigotry. But we still need to be able to respect people as individuals and live peacefully and amicably with them, and that's why I'm often so quick to jump on what I see as anti-Muslim rhetoric.
I wish your friend all the best, and that she has the support she needs. |
And yet you often mock Christianity, double standards
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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I don't want this to be about my colleague my friend - and I have perhaps made it this by my posts and for that I am sorry - I am just so angry so very very angry!
I understand - believe it or not - what you are saying PTID - BUT you cannot take the human response out of responses to atrocities you just can't!
I understand the science but the science becomes irrelevant when faced with human consequence and emotion - and that is why we as a race will never rise above our differences - just my incredibly muddled sad angry opinion 
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^I feel ya, Morrigu, I really do. Your feelings are completely natural and your catharsis eminently understandable. More than anything I worry about all that grimness weighing on you, and FWIW you certainly have my admiration. Hang in there and keep one foot in a happy place of one kind or another. The other day when the latest dark news came through I hit the standup comedy clips on YouTube; that always seems to work for me.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Of course these cultural ideas are nonsense; all cultural ideas are. |
I've enjoyed your posts today, but I completely disagree with you on this. Some cultural ideas are immensely valuable and not nonsense at all. The rule of law ; separation of powers ; parliamentary democracy ; separation of religion and the state ; feminism and equality under the law ; habeas corpus ; the right to own property ; the idea of redistributive taxation to ensure some measure of economic opportunity.
These are all cultural ideas. They all flow from the Western enlightenment, and they are the basis of progress ; not nonsense at all. They are just values, and therefore not rooted in any natural law. But that makes them more valuable, since they can be overturned.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | Fair enough, Morrigu. For what it's worth, I think there are a lot of stupid things about Islam, not least the fact that it requires belief in an imaginary friend. We need to feel free to say these things, and never confuse criticism - even mockery - of a religion with bigotry. But we still need to be able to respect people as individuals and live peacefully and amicably with them, and that's why I'm often so quick to jump on what I see as anti-Muslim rhetoric.
I wish your friend all the best, and that she has the support she needs. |
And yet you often mock Christianity, double standards |
Exactly. Christianity, not Christians. It may seem a fine line, but it's an important one.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | Of course these cultural ideas are nonsense; all cultural ideas are. |
I've enjoyed your posts today, but I completely disagree with you on this. Some cultural ideas are immensely valuable and not nonsense at all. The rule of law ; separation of powers ; parliamentary democracy ; separation of religion and the state ; feminism and equality under the law ; habeas corpus ; the right to own property ; the idea of redistributive taxation to ensure some measure of economic opportunity.
These are all cultural ideas. They all flow from the Western enlightenment, and they are the basis of progress ; not nonsense at all. They are just values, and therefore not rooted in any natural law. But that makes them more valuable, since they can be overturned. |
Yeah, I'm trying to grow up a bit, despite the odd slip 
This is where we part ways on this. For me, ideas are genetic and productive; a dime a dozen given the cognitive capacity of our brains. The stasis (or lack thereof) is what locks them in and makes them sensible. The psychological stasis gets first dibs on them, working with a massive pool of cognitive concepts to spit out some story it finds acceptable. The environmental stasis then either affirms or challenges that inner agreement.
The ideas look important because in the cool light of day when you put them on page you're actually playing cognitive chess with them. In that state, nonsense can be found all over the place. I mean, the most basic assumptions such as "this is my land" or "I deserve to eat more than that child" or "but I was justified in doing that because..." or "my life is so hard", or whatever become absurdities.
Now, throw our subjective, irrational psychologies back into the mix, and suddenly we start defending those nonsense notions as if they have basis in logic. They don't; they first have to negotiate with desire, resulting in a synthesis that looks nothing like science, yet is our most natural and comfortable state of being.
In everyday life it's not the cognitive chess player who's running the show, it's our inner resolution. It doesn't matter what the cognitive chess player says because the desires have to align for those words to mean anything.
And that's religion and politics in a nutshell: Complete public nonsense which in large part has no bearing on actual desire. Do those Christians really want Big Brother to roast you in hell or vapourise you at the second coming? No. The gap between the doctrine and the desire is a giant gulf and never the twain shall meet. Except in two cases.
One, in cases of isolated apocalyptic communities which are either literally being submitted to the torture of extreme oppression, or have felt that in their lives before coming together in group hysteria to live it out with others. In the case of people joining cults, we know the ridiculous ideas and the psychological state always precedes life in the cult. The new extremist context then ratifies inner resolution between the concepts and desires to an even greater extent.
Once you''re in the midst of chaos, like ISIS, you pretty much have the daily double. You feel physically oppressed (Fred was shot yesterday), and you have a good set of loon ideas to draw from in which to work up a nice inner resolution of craziness. But, as we've discussed, Christians, Hindus and atheists have no trouble getting to the same point themselves.
Now, of the people I see down the street, only a tiny fraction of them will come to that sort of deranged resolution. My local Muslim pharmacist or the kids down the street just aren't at risk of that. No amount of jihad or last judgement talk resonates with their psychologies. None. Instead, they feel discomfort, embarrassment, shame, understandable anger at the discomfort, and so on, all subject to much stronger and more functional desires to enjoy their lives. in other words, they're average, sane humans.
At the same time, that bitter white Christian so-and-so down the street has been waiting for an excuse to unleash his twisted psychiatry on anyone. He selects some convenient facts from the world and melds them with his reactionary, violent psychiatry and brews up a nice toxic dose to socially abuse the Muslims in his world with. Hiding under the cover of general fear, he mischievously conflates ISIS with, say, mainstream Malaysian Islam, and incites violence and oppression against the families about him.
Then, there's the outcast Muslim teen who has been bullied and picked on for years. He was sexually and physically abused by his cousin, whom he stayed with for two years as a child, and is of a frail psychiatry. Now, he might well become a terrorist, or perhaps just a street thug. Or, hopefully, he gets treatment.
If he were white, he might also become a street thug. Or perhaps a rapist or a pedophile. Or, perhaps just that bitter nasty old bastard down the road heaping misery on Muslim families.
None of this has anything meaningful to do with religion and ideology at a scientific level except at the most general level of categorisation (e.g., "fundamentalism"). It's a universal, and it rears its head under dysfunctional conditions, from an opaque, cultic Catholic Priesthood, to the bedroom of one oddball child in an otherwise average Muslim household in a suburb of Birmingham.
Science needs mechanisms of action and causality to be science. The mere correlation of events can be contingent on so many factors as to be completely distracting. Given their ubiquity and our ability to so easily generate them with our giant Homo sapiens brains, ideas are one of the worst pieces of evidence out there because absurd ideas can be found to coexist with almost any circumstance you care to imagine, from the blissful to the violent.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | Fair enough, Morrigu. For what it's worth, I think there are a lot of stupid things about Islam, not least the fact that it requires belief in an imaginary friend. We need to feel free to say these things, and never confuse criticism - even mockery - of a religion with bigotry. But we still need to be able to respect people as individuals and live peacefully and amicably with them, and that's why I'm often so quick to jump on what I see as anti-Muslim rhetoric.
I wish your friend all the best, and that she has the support she needs. |
And yet you often mock Christianity, double standards |
Exactly. Christianity, not Christians. It may seem a fine line, but it's an important one. |
When you mock Christianity you are mocking Christians. your mocking their belief system. Why do you need to mock at all?
What went through your head when you saw the Parisians walking out of the stain through the tunnel, singing their national anthem?
I thought: solidarity, guts, sadness, and national pride. "You will not destroy us".
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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When I said that we must not confuse mockery of Islam with bigotry, I was merely pointing out what freedom of speech must permit. That doesn't mean we should mock religion at every opportunity; just that we shouldn't be prevented from doing so.
As I'm sure you'll agree, some beliefs are stupid. Some people believe in magic crystals, Scientology and communism. I'm sure you think some of the things I believe are ridiculous. But obviously there's a difference between criticism of an idea and mocking/belittling of the person who believes in it. This is a pretty basic distinction, I would have thought.
I'm not actually sure where you get this idea that I'm always mocking Christianity, though. Can you think of any examples?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | When I said that we must not confuse mockery of Islam with bigotry, I was merely pointing out what freedom of speech must permit. That doesn't mean we should mock religion at every opportunity; just that we shouldn't be prevented from doing so.
As I'm sure you'll agree, some beliefs are stupid. Some people believe in magic crystals, Scientology and communism. I'm sure you think some of the things I believe are ridiculous. But obviously there's a difference between criticism of an idea and mocking/belittling of the person who believes in it. This is a pretty basic distinction, I would have thought.
I'm not actually sure where you get this idea that I'm always mocking Christianity, though. Can you think of any examples? |
fair enough
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | Fair enough, Morrigu. For what it's worth, I think there are a lot of stupid things about Islam, not least the fact that it requires belief in an imaginary friend. We need to feel free to say these things, and never confuse criticism - even mockery - of a religion with bigotry. But we still need to be able to respect people as individuals and live peacefully and amicably with them, and that's why I'm often so quick to jump on what I see as anti-Muslim rhetoric.
I wish your friend all the best, and that she has the support she needs. |
And yet you often mock Christianity, double standards |
Exactly. Christianity, not Christians. It may seem a fine line, but it's an important one. |
That is why I am not Religious
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I am Da Man |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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 a rocket launcher !
Heavily armed tactical units launched 168 pre-dawn raids at addresses in Toulouse, Lyon, Grenoble, Calais and two suburbs of Paris.
A rocket launcher, flak jackets, several pistols and a Kalashnikov assault rifle were among the cache of weapons seized in Lyon overnight.
French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said 104 people have been placed under house arrest, while 23 suspects have been detained for questioning.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319981/French-police-launch-series-anti-terror-raids.html#ixzz3riY8GFf1
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| Morrigu wrote: | a rocket launcher !
Heavily armed tactical units launched 168 pre-dawn raids at addresses in Toulouse, Lyon, Grenoble, Calais and two suburbs of Paris.
A rocket launcher, flak jackets, several pistols and a Kalashnikov assault rifle were among the cache of weapons seized in Lyon overnight.
French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said 104 people have been placed under house arrest, while 23 suspects have been detained for questioning.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319981/French-police-launch-series-anti-terror-raids.html#ixzz3riY8GFf1 |
Allies should just go and Blow the Shit out of Syia
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Ho Lee Fook.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | a rocket launcher !
Heavily armed tactical units launched 168 pre-dawn raids at addresses in Toulouse, Lyon, Grenoble, Calais and two suburbs of Paris.
A rocket launcher, flak jackets, several pistols and a Kalashnikov assault rifle were among the cache of weapons seized in Lyon overnight.
French Interior Minister Bernard Cazeneuve said 104 people have been placed under house arrest, while 23 suspects have been detained for questioning.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3319981/French-police-launch-series-anti-terror-raids.html#ixzz3riY8GFf1 |
Allies should just go and Blow the Shit out of Syia |
Pretty sure Syria's been doing a perfectly adequate job of blowing itself up.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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