Attacks in Paris
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think positive 
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| sixpoints wrote: | An act of incredible heroism that potentially saved scores of lives.
A bloke ran up to an ISIS suicide bomber and tackled him to the ground as the bomber was running towards a crowd of people.
Throwing him to the ground detonated the bomb killing the terrorist and sadly also the hero who wrestled him to the ground.
Not Paris, but Beirut. Same terrible story, but not quite so well publicised.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-11-16/paris-attacks-hero-emerges-from-beirut-bombing/6945018 |
Yeah I posted that on my Facebook page, just an amazing, selfless act , may he RIP
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think positive
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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | When is the death of civilians a tragedy and when is it just unfortunate collateral damage.
If you can grasp the terror of French citizens being massacred in cold blood when they least expected it, why would you want to inflict the exact same thing on people in a different country? Defending civilians' deaths as a means to an end is ISIS logic.
| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | I find it astounding that, just 48 hours after the horror of these attacks, people can be making flippant remarks about blowing up random Middle-Eastern civilians. The irony meter is through the roof. |
Where?
I was making a flippant remark about blowing up the oil reserves, not civilians.  |
I wasn't referring to you. Both Morrigu and TP have said that we should "blow them all up".
Even as a flippant remark, it's pretty appalling. |
Yeah, well sometimes people just vent when they're angry or frustrated,(that's what Social Media and bulletin boards are for aren't they) doesn't mean they literally mean it, although after what Morrigu's friend went through I wouldn't blame her if she did. |
Yep, totally agree.
As for me, well the French went in with 20 bombs today. I'm not condemning them, are you? You think Isis will sit down with coffee and cake and talk it out?
Nope, that would take guts They are cowards, hiding and getting troops to do their dirty work with threats to them or their family, they are pure $$%^%%$ evil. If you could get them In a meeting, save the cost of bullets, and chuck in a grenade. They are killing their own, they are killing one one who doesn't go along with their ideology.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I am not making this stuff up. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Take a sledgehammer to the oven and buy a new one. Get it installed by some hunky young bloke and give him the bill after it's done. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Take a sledgehammer to the oven and buy a new one. Get it installed by some hunky young bloke and give him the bill after it's done. |
Hmm I could do that
What's the hunk billing me for?  
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
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^
Whatever it is, 5150 will have it on video 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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http://www.crikey.com.au/2015/11/16/rundle-fighting-terrorism-with-violence-only-creates-more-terrorists/
| Quote: | Fighting terrorism with violence only creates more terrorists
Guy Rundle
Of the seven attackers killed in the Paris bombings and shootings it would so far appear that two were foreigners, while at least three have been confirmed as French citizens. Meanwhile, a Syrian passport found at the Bataclan concert hall, which suggested a refugee as a culprit, is reportedly fake.
Though there seems little doubt that Islamic State authored the atrocities a communique from the group speaks of dispatching eight jihadis to wage war on crusader France theres no indication that disguised refugees smuggling themselves in on the wave from Syria were essential to the plot. Whatever instructions may have been passed from central command in Raqqa, it appears that the three teams that attacked the stadium, the Bataclan hall and some nearby restaurants did so largely as autonomous groups.
The attacks were pretty crude luckily, as this meant that three suicide bombers didnt gain access to the stadium and pretty simple. The object was civilian terror in its near-purest form people were murdered simply for being on French soil. One of the restaurants targeted was Cambodian, so it would appear there was no attempt to target white Europeans, crusaders. They were attacks that mobilised the pure heart of terror, indifference to innocence.
They have certainly succeeded in it, largely by mixing the techniques of bombing and shooting. The latter, in the Bataclan hall, had the same ghastly theatrical quality of an IS mass execution video hundreds of trapped people were shot at one by one, 90 of them killed outright. It would seem to have become clear to IS and other groups that bombing is not as terrifying as it once was shooting, one by one, is, as the sheer global horror at the stories that came out of the Bataclan attest to.
President Francois Hollande has said that the attacks amount to an act of war, and so they do. But from the point of view of IS, it is an act of further war, Frances bombing of Iraq and Syria being the original act of war to which they are replying. Here, IS cant really lose. If Hollande were to treat these acts as merely criminal occurrences and argue that the state should be blind to the purported political motives of such perpetrators (as the UK tried to do with the IRA, or to Zionist terrorists in the 1940s), then he would appear weak in the current context.
But as soon as he declares it an act of war, he grants recognition to the Islamic State as such as a territorial entity. By all material definitions IS is a state, with a government holding a monopoly of violence within its borders, enforcing law and collecting taxes from a functioning economy. What else is a state but that? This weekend, it just became a whole lot more real as one. It was understandable that people would want to stand with France by lighting up the Opera House and whatnot, but that also helps IS in its striving for recognition, as an other, with consequences. The global village that has finally arrived with the advent of Twitter makes the need to do something, to manifest, overwhelming. Terror relies on this, just as the terror of the 60s and 70s arose with the general spread of satellite TV and global news.
Yet of course, in another aspect, IS absolutely doesnt need the territory to make a global mark. The West has entered a slightly punch-drunk phase for the moment, reminiscent of 9/12, 9/13, etc, when all sorts of phrases lets roll into Raqqa are being bandied about. Well, that would not be so hard with a mid-sized force, 75,000-100,000 troops, who would have to remain for years to try and bolt something down. But that is, of course, an invasion of northern Syria, and a re-invasion of Iraq. That does not seem at all likely. But even if it were, whatever decapitating effect it had on IS would be the same as applied to a hydra. What better recruiting tool in the Muslim populations of Western countries than yet another invasion, another remaking of the Middle East, to get it right this time?
This would approach the effect that the British worried about in Belfast and Derry in the 70s: that you can reach a tipping point at which people who are merely angry or disgruntled, politically resistant , etc, start to volunteer for active service (i.e. urban guerrillaism/terrorism) at a suddenly vastly higher rate, jumping from 1 in 10,000 to 1 in 2000. When that really starts, youre finished as the British were finished in the Palestinian mandate, or the Isarelis in Gaza. But at least those entities had the option of withdrawal. In Western societies, multi-ethnic for half a century now, there is nowhere to withdraw to. There is no inside or outside to the people defined as under attack (and whose states, elsewhere, are doing the attacking). You cant keep out the attackers by breaking the link between Raqqa and the West. The link is online and the degree of operational instruction required, virtually nil. And if IS was to be annihilated, the attack would prompt those new recruits to create free zones in north Africa, where another fully functioning territorial IS will arise at any moment.
The focus on keeping refugees out is thus an obvious fantasy a fantasy that something can be done, at that level. But, of course, nothing can be. Another few of these attacks or worse, and it would be possible to tip into the next stage, where the large-scale roundup of Muslims begin. At worse, a state of exception would be invoked, and natural-born citizens would be summarily deprived of their rights. But that, in turn, would split European society in two. The last solution, and the one most likely to be applied, will be intense surveillance of a wider group of suspects, a practice that, we also know, turns suspects into more active violent people, by conferring the identity of such on them I will become what they say I am.
Indeed, everything will be tried, in an effort to avoid the obvious truth: withdrawing troops and bombing runs from those lands would diminish the terror risk at home greatly. But to do that would be to not only acknowledge the folly and criminality of a decade of wars, but to also acknowledge that the terror has a political content, that it is not some wacky war for a global caliphate, or a nihilist assault. Nihilism might describe its means; it does not describe its ends. The Western powers are willing to keep offering non-solutions for quite a while, and for a quite a few more deaths of their own citizens, at the hand of their own citizens. |
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think positive
Side By Side
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So your all for hot chocolate and kumbaya around the fire place?
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stui magpie
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Joined: 03 May 2005
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Grundle is just the left wing counterpart to the Blot, with similar credibility and a lot less readers.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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^ It may be that "withdrawing troops and bombing runs from those lands would diminish the terror risk at home greatly." ... but I doubt it. This is the fantasy which says that it is our fault that we are being attacked, the old refrain of the Left. Everything bad that happens, is our fault. At its root, it is narcissism and egocentricity ; driven, I suspect, by a desire of a certain kind of proselytising leftist to self-aggrandise, the belief that s/he is the one in possession of enlightenment among - and in contrast to - the tribe.
"But to do that would be to ... acknowledge the folly and criminality of a decade of wars". I think the Iraq fiasco has long been acknowledged as such. And France, by the way, didn't participate in that. Charlie Hebdo had nothing to do with Syria. Rundle is just scratching about at the bottom of the cage for something to blame us for. Lenin's phrase was "useful idiots". It was too kind.
As with all of these issues, there is no way to know, in advance, what it will take to defeat this vile, barbarous ideology. Personally, I think a period of sequestration of the ME from all outside influence - if that were possible - would be desirable. But our military involvement may prove to be necessary to a solution, and no policy should be ruled out in advance. We are not there yet, and I hope that we are not in the future. But only when you have Rundle's knee-jerk certainty that it's all our fault, do you come to blithely to the conclusion that our involvement in the ME is the root cause and that military action should be ruled out.
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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I have a lot of contact - and for that reason I worked from home today as I couldn't trust myself not to direct my anger in the wrong direction - and my anger is not because of the Beirut or Paris tragedies but for a different atrocity and that is my issue 
I obviously didn't express it well but I wasn't advocating nuking all Muslims - livid I may be but not completely lost the plot - yet!!!
But I am sick to death of not being to criticise Islam without being labelled whatever term is fashionable by the PC left - that is half the problem - that is what fuels resentment - some of their ideology is fcked and not compatible with Western ideology - end of - and we should be able to say so!!!
But I would happily nuke the bastards Muslim or otherwise who think that they have the right to impose their mediavial views on everyone else including gang raping a white pink, purple or green women because they see them as lesser - even when said women are actually assisting them
Head in the sand people should have a look at the horrific sexual assault and rape that is occurring in refugee camps ( let alone the communities they are released into) - the ideology of many many of the Islamic men is what fuels these assaults - that's a fact and no amount of your ill directed hand wringing will change that!!! These are not in the majority Daesh scum - but if you refuse to a knowledge that even so called " moderate" Islam has a problem then you are dimwit of the highest order!
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | ^
Nah, apparently just his mouth, emitting a noise akin to our mate 3 attaching a corrugated shed with one of his prize Stihl's. |
That's a very unkind comment.
There is no wae I'd attack a corrugated shed with 1 of my prized Stihls.
If the need ever arose I'd do what any sensible bloke would do.
I'd borrow a Husqvanna. |
LOL. Sorry, but now I'm confused. You'd borrow a sewing machine?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Fair enough, Morrigu. For what it's worth, I think there are a lot of stupid things about Islam, not least the fact that it requires belief in an imaginary friend. We need to feel free to say these things, and never confuse criticism - even mockery - of a religion with bigotry. But we still need to be able to respect people as individuals and live peacefully and amicably with them, and that's why I'm often so quick to jump on what I see as anti-Muslim rhetoric.
I wish your friend all the best, and that she has the support she needs.
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | I have a lot of contact - and for that reason I worked from home today as I couldn't trust myself not to direct my anger in the wrong direction - and my anger is not because of the Beirut or Paris tragedies but for a different atrocity and that is my issue
I obviously didn't express it well but I wasn't advocating nuking all Muslims - livid I may be but not completely lost the plot - yet!!!
But I am sick to death of not being to criticise Islam without being labelled whatever term is fashionable by the PC left - that is half the problem - that is what fuels resentment - some of their ideology is fcked and not compatible with Western ideology - end of - and we should be able to say so!!!
But I would happily nuke the bastards Muslim or otherwise who think that they have the right to impose their mediavial views on everyone else including gang raping a white pink, purple or green women because they see them as lesser - even when said women are actually assisting them
Head in the sand people should have a look at the horrific sexual assault and rape that is occurring in refugee camps ( let alone the communities they are released into) - the ideology of many many of the Islamic men is what fuels these assaults - that's a fact and no amount of your ill directed hand wringing will change that!!! These are not in the majority Daesh scum - but if you refuse to a knowledge that even so called " moderate" Islam has a problem then you are dimwit of the highest order! |
Is it Islam, social conditions, ethnicity, patriarchy, perhaps?
I agree there is a lot about Islam combined with a lack of education that is incompatible with western values - & to that extent I agree with Christopher Hitchens.
Jewish schools, synagogues & cultural centres (for want of another term) have to have security guards due to: right wing nutters, left wing nutters, & Muslim nutters.
Hitchens on Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sEcBzxoMB8
Hitchens on religion including Islam
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJ2LehsA1dk
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Ah Morrigu, one is torn because emotionally what you feel makes perfect sense in your context, and what you're seeing is beyond the pale; but, how you understand the problem makes no sense at all.
Of course these cultural ideas are nonsense; all cultural ideas are. But the violent use of power is a universal human genetic fact. It is given expression under certain conditions through whatever grim set of ideas are available at the time.
In Christian Latin America, the women would be raped for being putas deserving of their fate for shaming their familias every bit the same. In Confucian Korea, the same justification can come from atheism, and is given ample opportunity to thrive in a culture which doesn't like to get involved in the affairs of those beyond their family.
Violent, oppressive ideas are genetic in our species, and they thrive wherever a power gap and dysfunction are found.
Criticise absurd ideas all you like; no one is questioning the breadth of idiocy across the earth, for goodness' sake. Rail against deranged acts of barbaric violence if that helps, despite them being obviously so.
But at some point do some science to make sure you don't take up membership in yet another set of really bad ideas.
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