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| How do you feel about the police? |
| $#@% tha po-lice |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| I don't like what they stand for, but have no problem with them individually. |
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12% |
[ 2 ] |
| They're a necessary evil. |
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12% |
[ 2 ] |
| They're just ordinary people doing a job that needs to be done. |
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62% |
[ 10 ] |
| They're great. Melbourne's finest! |
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12% |
[ 2 ] |
| I have no particular feelings towards them either way. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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Message |
Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| think positive wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | I can't vote. I need an "all of the above" option. (Not joking: the ones I've met cover that entire range, from dedicated people of great understanding right through to corrupt bastards of the worst order. Most are in the middle: decent people battling to deal with a bad system and sometimes getting it right, sometimes getting it wrong.)
Our recent police policies are very, very bad, however, and the force is now set on a path downhill towards the horrors of American police forces. No time for an essay here, but I give you three items:
(1) The new uniforms. The old light uniforms had a different aspect to them. Police didn't look scary. They looked approachable, honest, even friendly and helpful. The new Gestapo-style uniforms make them look mean and officious and scary.
You think looks don't matter? Then you don't know much about humanity. Throw yourself back into the gene pool and start again. Presentation of self is the most important part of social interaction. It flows through and powerfully influences everything we do. As you look, so do you act. Fact. As other people see you, so do they act. And, in consequence, so do you act. This is not the place for a comprehensive introduction to social interaction and the presentation of self in everyday life (do that in another thread if desired; I'll try to contribute to it as time allows), just let it stand that the uniforms are a big mistake.
(2) The new never-alone rule. Yep, sure it's a safety thing. Can see that. And see also that it's a gutless caving in to the most corrupt union in this country. Can see that too. There is sense in it, and there is also great danger in it.
From now on, it's not possible for a citizen to have a conversation with a policeman. A real conversation where two people orient on one-another and interact. Now, because of the always-in-pairs rule, a citizen can only interact with a pair of policemen - and pairs of anything are very, very different animals. Just by this simple, seemingly minor thing, the government has completely changed the dynamic of citizen-police interactions. The two police orient on each other (basic rule of presentational psychology: you always orient on the most significant person present, and a workmate is always more significant than a customer) and thus each acts a role more like a policeman and less like a human individual reacting to another human individual.
Some good comes out of this, mostly bad. Less communication. Less understanding. Less give and take. Less flexibility. Bad move, Victoria.
(3) There is no 3. |
Your 65kg sister isn't a member of the Victorian police force. I like both initiatives, and so does she |
Really? You like having less policing for more money? Every single job that can be and always has been done by a single (expensive!) policeman now has to be done by two (very expensive!!) policemen. More cost, less safety. More patrols that don't happen. A worse result for every single Victorian .... except for the Police Union.
Madness.
You like having police dressed to inspire fear and hatred instead of friendliness and respect.
More madness.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | (Tannin makes an excellent observation on the social effect and role-playing of two officers together. I totally understand the safety reasons for doing so, though, and think they probably outweigh the social concerns. Police are there to keep the peace, after all, not be your best friend.) |
Oh dear, where is your famous analytic brain today? Police can't keep the peace, not on their own. You can never have enough policemen to keep the peace. Stalin found that out the hard way, so did Hitler, so have innumerable other police state bullies. Citizens will always outnumber policemen, even in North Korea they do.
The peace is kept, in the main, by citizens at large. 99.999999% of crime prevention is performed by ordinary citizens in a thousand little ways. Mostly, we do this by policing ourselves, by (each one of us) choosing not to run that red light, not to pocket that trinket on the shop shelf without paying for it, not to do all those many, many other things we might do if we chose to.
We do more police work (i.e., ensuring the laws are kept) by the way we raise our children, and more again in the dozens of social interactions we participate in each day.
The police and the courts do their best to deal with the 0.000001% of human actions which we, the citizens at large, don't manage to prevent.
If police are our friends, if we see them as on our side, as honest servants of the society we live in, everything works. Maybe not perfectly, but it works.
But as soon as police are seen as the enemy, as aggressive, as arrogant, as corrupt, as messengers of violence, as blackshirts, as servants of the gestapo, as any of these things: as soon, in other words, as people at large see the police the way David sees them, we, the ones who do the 99.9999% of holding society together, stop trying. This is exactly what happened, for example, to the Soviet Union and led to its doom. It is exactly what is happening in the United States right now.
It isn't just counter productive to dress the police up as gestapo instead of honest coppers, it is stupid. The most effective thing a police force can do is establish and renew good relations with the community. Carrying big guns and dressing up in dark uniforms to scare kids is madness doomed to failure.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | So if your a cop your a colossal boof head?
David I don't find your lack of respect endearing at all, it's not cute, it's not brave, it's arrogant and just a little bit ignorant. |
That's not exactly what I meant, though perhaps you could say that I associate police with boofhead-esque qualities.
I'm not saying that I'm right. I'm just trying to give you an insight into my assumptions/prejudices. That's what this thread is about, really – not so much "are police officers good people?" as "what is your instinctive reaction to them?".
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Good Post. I'd also add the 'revenue raisers' tag as well. People are starting to see cops as tax collectors (through petty fines) more than peace officers. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Tannin wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | I can't vote. I need an "all of the above" option. (Not joking: the ones I've met cover that entire range, from dedicated people of great understanding right through to corrupt bastards of the worst order. Most are in the middle: decent people battling to deal with a bad system and sometimes getting it right, sometimes getting it wrong.)
Our recent police policies are very, very bad, however, and the force is now set on a path downhill towards the horrors of American police forces. No time for an essay here, but I give you three items:
(1) The new uniforms. The old light uniforms had a different aspect to them. Police didn't look scary. They looked approachable, honest, even friendly and helpful. The new Gestapo-style uniforms make them look mean and officious and scary.
You think looks don't matter? Then you don't know much about humanity. Throw yourself back into the gene pool and start again. Presentation of self is the most important part of social interaction. It flows through and powerfully influences everything we do. As you look, so do you act. Fact. As other people see you, so do they act. And, in consequence, so do you act. This is not the place for a comprehensive introduction to social interaction and the presentation of self in everyday life (do that in another thread if desired; I'll try to contribute to it as time allows), just let it stand that the uniforms are a big mistake.
(2) The new never-alone rule. Yep, sure it's a safety thing. Can see that. And see also that it's a gutless caving in to the most corrupt union in this country. Can see that too. There is sense in it, and there is also great danger in it.
From now on, it's not possible for a citizen to have a conversation with a policeman. A real conversation where two people orient on one-another and interact. Now, because of the always-in-pairs rule, a citizen can only interact with a pair of policemen - and pairs of anything are very, very different animals. Just by this simple, seemingly minor thing, the government has completely changed the dynamic of citizen-police interactions. The two police orient on each other (basic rule of presentational psychology: you always orient on the most significant person present, and a workmate is always more significant than a customer) and thus each acts a role more like a policeman and less like a human individual reacting to another human individual.
Some good comes out of this, mostly bad. Less communication. Less understanding. Less give and take. Less flexibility. Bad move, Victoria.
(3) There is no 3. |
Your 65kg sister isn't a member of the Victorian police force. I like both initiatives, and so does she |
Really? You like having less policing for more money? Every single job that can be and always has been done by a single (expensive!) policeman now has to be done by two (very expensive!!) policemen. More cost, less safety. More patrols that don't happen. A worse result for every single Victorian .... except for the Police Union.
Madness.
You like having police dressed to inspire fear and hatred instead of friendliness and respect.
More madness. |
Just my opinion but that's a load of crapola
Thanks to all the shit parents dragging up feral kids with no respect no morals and far to much expectation of entitlement, a scarier police force is now an unfortunate necessity
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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The Prototype 
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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I know nothing about Melbourne's police force, I've known many good police officers in Tasmania. There was one guy working out of the Bridgewater Police Station that was a smug, arrogant little tool who as fresh out of the academy. Other than that one I've had nothing but good experiences with Tasmania Police even though they've not been able to help us with finding and making a case against the guy that attacked me awhile ago most have been good.
I don't think I am ever going to forget being told that night being told the attack wasn't life threatening so they weren't going to come out. I guess a pool of blood wasn't life threatening to that guy...
But there's many others that were good, the lady officer that was out this way, the guys that were playing footy that were also officers like the Elmer brothers, the Ryan's and so on. They were all good.
They do their job to the best of their ability, you have the good and bad ones, but without them we're pretty screwed. Just need to get rid of some of the not so good ones.
_________________
Ðavâgé
https://www.facebook.com/davehardingphotography
https://www.facebook.com/Davage |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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There is a lot more not so good people than there are no so good coppers might want to work on that first!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Wokko wrote: | | Good Post. I'd also add the 'revenue raisers' tag as well. People are starting to see cops as tax collectors (through petty fines) more than peace officers. |
Don't speed you won't help them revenue raise!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Sun Nov 08, 2015 9:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | Interesting responses. I could probably count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've interacted with a police officer, and they haven't really been particularly positive or negative experiences (well, ok, a few have come across as jerks, but that's hardly a hanging offence). As with soldiers, I wonder about the kind of person who would feel motivated to join the police force; but I do believe that we need to have a police force, and it seems like the police in Victoria, at least, are pretty well managed so as to curb any inclinations towards extreme authoritarianism and corruption.
(Tannin makes an excellent observation on the social effect and role-playing of two officers together. I totally understand the safety reasons for doing so, though, and think they probably outweigh the social concerns. Police are there to keep the peace, after all, not be your best friend.)
That's my intellectual standpoint. On an emotional level, however, I'm terrified of them. I can't help it - every time I see a police car, or see them walking on the street, I feel on edge. Yet I'm probably one of the most law-abiding people I know.
It's like this: every time I see a booze bus, I find myself desperately hoping I won't be pulled over, even though I haven't had anything to drink. Dr Freud, your opinion, please! |
You worry about what kind of people would join the Police because you see them as Authority figures and you distrust/are scared of Authority figures.
Many/most people join the Police out of desire to serve the community, to do good, not because they have authoritarian fetishes. Also, for what you do the benefits aren't that bad. I guy I went to High School joined the Police after school. Retired a year or so ago after 25 years service with a good pension for life and he's not quite 50.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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The Prototype
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| think positive wrote: | | There is a lot more not so good people than there are no so good coppers might want to work on that first! |
Certainly.
A lot of them not so good people live where I do, and I think for the most part the police have given up on some crimes as the people have given light sentences and they figure why bother? At least that's the general feel when you see nothing really being done.
_________________
Ðavâgé
https://www.facebook.com/davehardingphotography
https://www.facebook.com/Davage |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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You're right, there's probably a wide range of motivations. I wonder how many really want to serve the community, though? There are many ways to help other people or the community at large, so what draws them to the police force in particular?
It doesn't really matter in the end, because someone's gotta do it. Again, like joining the army - if we didn't have people in our community who like the idea of playing with guns then we'd probably have a pretty small defence force. But motivation and character do play a large role in shaping a culture. I don't know where I'm going with this, it's just something that's run through my mind in the past.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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The Prototype
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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| David wrote: | You're right, there's probably a wide range of motivations. I wonder how many really want to serve the community, though? There are many ways to help other people or the community at large, so what draws them to the police force in particular?
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I think they all start out wanting to serve the community then there are some that lose their way, probably should look at the reason why they seem to lose their way. I suppose figuring out why they decide to go from being good cops to not so good cops is a good start, it would certainly help explain why so many good bad and accept bribes and stuff.
_________________
Ðavâgé
https://www.facebook.com/davehardingphotography
https://www.facebook.com/Davage |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | You're right, there's probably a wide range of motivations. I wonder how many really want to serve the community, though? There are many ways to help other people or the community at large, so what draws them to the police force in particular?
It doesn't really matter in the end, because someone's gotta do it. Again, like joining the army - if we didn't have people in our community who like the idea of playing with guns then we'd probably have a pretty small defence force. But motivation and character do play a large role in shaping a culture. I don't know where I'm going with this, it's just something that's run through my mind in the past. |
Both the cops and the ADF do psych evals as part of the recruitment process. I know one bloke who got knocked back by the ADF after his eval, he sort of liked weapons and things that blew up.............too much.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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The Prototype
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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