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Dave The Man 
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| Quote: | | Moore showed enormous potential in his nine games in 2015, but we must remember he is still essentially a kid. He certainly played well enough to expect a spot as a tall forward even though he has a lot to improve. I don't want to see him overworked too early and if he pinch hits in the ruck then I have concerns about the effect of the crash and bash aspect on his body. I would expect Moore to play almost all games in 2016. |
Where do you see Moore needs the Most Improvement in?
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | Quote: | | Moore showed enormous potential in his nine games in 2015, but we must remember he is still essentially a kid. He certainly played well enough to expect a spot as a tall forward even though he has a lot to improve. I don't want to see him overworked too early and if he pinch hits in the ruck then I have concerns about the effect of the crash and bash aspect on his body. I would expect Moore to play almost all games in 2016. |
Where do you see Moore needs the Most Improvement in? |
I see three main improvements on the horizon for him:
1. His body maturing - whilst he is a tall kid, he still looks like a kid and gets moved off the ball a bit too easily. Hopefully this will eventuate quickly without him losing his nimble athletic ability.
2. Learning team structures and rules. Frankly, I thought he was running around a bit like a headless chook at times. He also "lost" (ie couldn't find) the ball on a few occasions when it hit the ground after a marking pack had formed. Don't take that the wrong way and get upset Dave - he is still a kid in his first few games so it is to be expected.
3. Focussing on playing forward. I expect us to play Grundy and Witts together most games with the sub rule gone (not necessarily my preference which I have posted above, but it is what I expect). This relegates Moore to 3rd in line at best so he shouldn't be called on often. I cringed (waiting for an injury) watching him in the ruck last season.
We need Moore to develop as a key forward as I see it, but he is flexible and along with the likes of Reid and Goldsack may see time forward and back and provide Bucks with a few options if he needs to change things up during the game.
We should have a pretty talented and multi-pronged forward line in 2016 taking the focus of Elliott and Cloke, but allowing each of our forwards to play key cameo roles at times. I'd be surprised if we didn't have at least 5 different players kick bags of 3+ (possibly more) in a game during the season and I reckon we should have at least 5 guys kicking around 30+ for the season - I might put the proverbial on the chopping block in the new year and make some more detailed predictions in this regard.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| MightyMagpie wrote: |
We should have a pretty talented and multi-pronged forward line in 2016 taking the focus of Elliott and Cloke, but allowing each of our forwards to play key cameo roles at times. I'd be surprised if we didn't have at least 5 different players kick bags of 3+ (possibly more) in a game during the season and I reckon we should have at least 5 guys kicking around 30+ for the season - I might put the proverbial on the chopping block in the new year and make some more detailed predictions in this regard. |
The old story about needing to develop multiple avenues to goal applies, but it's more than just having a number of forwards it's about using multiple different methods as well as different people.
When we were kicking lots of goals, IIRC we were scoring a lot of goals from turnovers. That's nice but we need to be able to score when the opposition defence has had time to set up. Long bomb to a tall target is just serving up lollies on a plate for most defences these days so that should only be the option if we have a clear one on one or there's no other option except to bang it to the point of the square.
The forwards need to be on the move and the mids delivering the ball need to be composed and skilful enough to look for and hit short options where a player has a yard of space. The also need to be prepared to take an extra few steps or a bounce and have a shot on the run.
Defences hate unpredictable movement into the forward line, it forces one on one contests. If you're prepared to have a ping on the run, kick it long to a tall and go short to someone in space the opposition backs have no option but to play man on man.
Forcing turnovers is great, but I'd prefer to start with the premise that if we get first use of it and use it well, we won't be forcing a lot of turnovers because the opposition won't have the bloody thing in the first place.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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| stui magpie wrote: | | MightyMagpie wrote: |
We should have a pretty talented and multi-pronged forward line in 2016 taking the focus of Elliott and Cloke, but allowing each of our forwards to play key cameo roles at times. I'd be surprised if we didn't have at least 5 different players kick bags of 3+ (possibly more) in a game during the season and I reckon we should have at least 5 guys kicking around 30+ for the season - I might put the proverbial on the chopping block in the new year and make some more detailed predictions in this regard. |
The old story about needing to develop multiple avenues to goal applies, but it's more than just having a number of forwards it's about using multiple different methods as well as different people.
When we were kicking lots of goals, IIRC we were scoring a lot of goals from turnovers. That's nice but we need to be able to score when the opposition defence has had time to set up. Long bomb to a tall target is just serving up lollies on a plate for most defences these days so that should only be the option if we have a clear one on one or there's no other option except to bang it to the point of the square.
The forwards need to be on the move and the mids delivering the ball need to be composed and skilful enough to look for and hit short options where a player has a yard of space. The also need to be prepared to take an extra few steps or a bounce and have a shot on the run.
Defences hate unpredictable movement into the forward line, it forces one on one contests. If you're prepared to have a ping on the run, kick it long to a tall and go short to someone in space the opposition backs have no option but to play man on man.
Forcing turnovers is great, but I'd prefer to start with the premise that if we get first use of it and use it well, we won't be forcing a lot of turnovers because the opposition won't have the bloody thing in the first place. |
I don't disagree with any of that. One thing we can improve on I think is crumbing goals. Too often the ball hits the deck from a marking contest and gets easily cleared out.
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neil 
Joined: 08 Sep 2005
Location: Queensland
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| Dave The Man wrote: | | Quote: | | Moore showed enormous potential in his nine games in 2015, but we must remember he is still essentially a kid. He certainly played well enough to expect a spot as a tall forward even though he has a lot to improve. I don't want to see him overworked too early and if he pinch hits in the ruck then I have concerns about the effect of the crash and bash aspect on his body. I would expect Moore to play almost all games in 2016. |
Where do you see Moore needs the Most Improvement in? |
He is a bit of a spud most likely tradebait at end of season along with Grundy
If they refuse a trade they will cost us a couple of first round draft picks
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Carlscum 120 years being cheating scum |
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Dave The Man
Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia
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| MightyMagpie wrote: | | Dave The Man wrote: | | Quote: | | Moore showed enormous potential in his nine games in 2015, but we must remember he is still essentially a kid. He certainly played well enough to expect a spot as a tall forward even though he has a lot to improve. I don't want to see him overworked too early and if he pinch hits in the ruck then I have concerns about the effect of the crash and bash aspect on his body. I would expect Moore to play almost all games in 2016. |
Where do you see Moore needs the Most Improvement in? |
I see three main improvements on the horizon for him:
1. His body maturing - whilst he is a tall kid, he still looks like a kid and gets moved off the ball a bit too easily. Hopefully this will eventuate quickly without him losing his nimble athletic ability.
2. Learning team structures and rules. Frankly, I thought he was running around a bit like a headless chook at times. He also "lost" (ie couldn't find) the ball on a few occasions when it hit the ground after a marking pack had formed. Don't take that the wrong way and get upset Dave - he is still a kid in his first few games so it is to be expected.
3. Focussing on playing forward. I expect us to play Grundy and Witts together most games with the sub rule gone (not necessarily my preference which I have posted above, but it is what I expect). This relegates Moore to 3rd in line at best so he shouldn't be called on often. I cringed (waiting for an injury) watching him in the ruck last season.
We need Moore to develop as a key forward as I see it, but he is flexible and along with the likes of Reid and Goldsack may see time forward and back and provide Bucks with a few options if he needs to change things up during the game.
We should have a pretty talented and multi-pronged forward line in 2016 taking the focus of Elliott and Cloke, but allowing each of our forwards to play key cameo roles at times. I'd be surprised if we didn't have at least 5 different players kick bags of 3+ (possibly more) in a game during the season and I reckon we should have at least 5 guys kicking around 30+ for the season - I might put the proverbial on the chopping block in the new year and make some more detailed predictions in this regard. |
Club has said he be Training as a Forward Now 
The Body will come with Time as you say still a Kid as a Teenager at 200cm's and The 2nd One will come with Experince
Has has Huge Upside
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CarringbushCigar 
Joined: 15 Nov 2007
Location: wherever I lay my beanie
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Has a straight vertical leap like his dad and can hit at highest point one grab.
Will be dangerous if isolated and we kick it to his advantage in the air.
Shows class in the ruck and can kick like his dad too.
Looks better and younger to me.
He has entered the charts with some momentum.
Its not too early to say superstar written all over him. |
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partypie
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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Moore shows enormous potential. Even if he's only half as good as is dad, he has a lot to offer.
Reading the original article, how impressive was Crisp coming third in the Copeland after Pendles and Swan? De Goey was impressive last year as well. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| CarringbushCigar wrote: | Has a straight vertical leap like his dad and can hit at highest point one grab.
Will be dangerous if isolated and we kick it to his advantage in the air.
Shows class in the ruck and can kick like his dad too.
Looks better and younger to me.
He has entered the charts with some momentum.
Its not too early to say superstar written all over him. |
I disagree. FAR too early to say that.
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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Added some third party training load/injury analysis.
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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Prediction #1: Steele Sidebottom will give Scott Pendlebury a run for his money in the Copeland in 2016 (and may even win it).
Prediction #2: Round 1 AFL/VFL Teams (with only Scharenberg unavailable through injury and Keeffe and Thomas unable to play).
This will raise a few eyebrows, but it is a long and rigorous season and I'd like to (and expect to) see an AFL team starting out with our more experienced guys, putting the acid on the younger guys to produce in the VFL and introducing them throughout the season as merited. This will hopefully ensure we don't end up with a team of exhausted youngsters come Round 23/Finals.
As you will see in Prediction #3, I expect many changes to this lineup over the course of the season.
AFL
B: Toovey, Brown, Williams
HB: Langdon, Reid, Goldsack
C: Sidebottom, Treloar, Pendlebury
HF: Elliott, Cloke, Howe
F: Fasolo, White, Swan
R: Grundy, Crisp, Adams
Int: Witts, Greenwood, Varcoe, Blair
Emg: Macaffer, Maynard, DeGoey
VFL
B: Ramsay, Frost, Sinclair
HB: Oxley, Marsh, Goodyear
C: Aish, Maynard, Broomhead
HF: Crocker, Wyatt*, Phillips
F: Macaffer, Moore, Gault*
R: Cox*, Sier, DeGoey
Int: Smith*, Golds*, Wills, +1 VFL listed
Prediction #3: Round 23 AFL Team (with only Scharenberg unavailable through injury and Keeffe and Thomas unable to play).
AFL
B: Ramsay, Brown, Williams
HB: Langdon, Reid, Maynard
C: Sidebottom, Treloar, Pendlebury
HF: Elliott, Cloke, Howe
F: Broomhead, Moore, Swan
R: Grundy, Crisp, Adams
Int: Greenwood, Varcoe, DeGoey, Aish
Emg: Witts, Fasolo, Goldsack
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yin-YANG
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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| MightyMagpie wrote: | Prediction #1: Steele Sidebottom will give Scott Pendlebury a run for his money in the Copeland in 2016 (and may even win it).
Prediction #2: Round 1 AFL/VFL Teams (with only Scharenberg unavailable through injury and Keeffe and Thomas unable to play).
This will raise a few eyebrows, but it is a long and rigorous season and I'd like to (and expect to) see an AFL team starting out with our more experienced guys, putting the acid on the younger guys to produce in the VFL and introducing them throughout the season as merited. This will hopefully ensure we don't end up with a team of exhausted youngsters come Round 23/Finals.
As you will see in Prediction #3, I expect many changes to this lineup over the course of the season.
AFL
B: Toovey, Brown, Williams
HB: Langdon, Reid, Goldsack
C: Sidebottom, Treloar, Pendlebury
HF: Elliott, Cloke, Howe
F: Fasolo, White, Swan
R: Grundy, Crisp, Adams
Int: Witts, Greenwood, Varcoe, Blair
Emg: Macaffer, Maynard, DeGoey
VFL
B: Ramsay, Frost, Sinclair
HB: Oxley, Marsh, Goodyear
C: Aish, Maynard, Broomhead
HF: Crocker, Wyatt*, Phillips
F: Macaffer, Moore, Gault*
R: Cox*, Sier, DeGoey
Int: Smith*, Golds*, Wills, +1 VFL listed
Prediction #3: Round 23 AFL Team (with only Scharenberg unavailable through injury and Keeffe and Thomas unable to play).
AFL
B: Ramsay, Brown, Williams
HB: Langdon, Reid, Maynard
C: Sidebottom, Treloar, Pendlebury
HF: Elliott, Cloke, Howe
F: Broomhead, Moore, Swan
R: Grundy, Crisp, Adams
Int: Greenwood, Varcoe, DeGoey, Aish
Emg: Witts, Fasolo, Goldsack |
Generally like your work and thinking MightyMagpie, however with Goldsack out in the later team along with Witts and White and only Reid and Brown down back we seem vulnerable in the big men department. An injury to Brown or Reid during a game would be a disaster!
Maybe for that reason Marsh comes in and replaces Maynard or Ramsay who are fighting for the spot down back. This would allow Reid to switch forward if needed and Marsh to play a role on a big forward. The other issue is the Ruck - if White does not make it this year and Witts is out then the only back-up for Grundy is Moore. He can do the job and I am happy with that but there are plenty of others who are worried about putting a future key forward in the ruck regularly.
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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| yin-YANG wrote: | | MightyMagpie wrote: | Prediction #1: Steele Sidebottom will give Scott Pendlebury a run for his money in the Copeland in 2016 (and may even win it).
Prediction #2: Round 1 AFL/VFL Teams (with only Scharenberg unavailable through injury and Keeffe and Thomas unable to play).
This will raise a few eyebrows, but it is a long and rigorous season and I'd like to (and expect to) see an AFL team starting out with our more experienced guys, putting the acid on the younger guys to produce in the VFL and introducing them throughout the season as merited. This will hopefully ensure we don't end up with a team of exhausted youngsters come Round 23/Finals.
As you will see in Prediction #3, I expect many changes to this lineup over the course of the season.
AFL
B: Toovey, Brown, Williams
HB: Langdon, Reid, Goldsack
C: Sidebottom, Treloar, Pendlebury
HF: Elliott, Cloke, Howe
F: Fasolo, White, Swan
R: Grundy, Crisp, Adams
Int: Witts, Greenwood, Varcoe, Blair
Emg: Macaffer, Maynard, DeGoey
VFL
B: Ramsay, Frost, Sinclair
HB: Oxley, Marsh, Goodyear
C: Aish, Maynard, Broomhead
HF: Crocker, Wyatt*, Phillips
F: Macaffer, Moore, Gault*
R: Cox*, Sier, DeGoey
Int: Smith*, Golds*, Wills, +1 VFL listed
Prediction #3: Round 23 AFL Team (with only Scharenberg unavailable through injury and Keeffe and Thomas unable to play).
AFL
B: Ramsay, Brown, Williams
HB: Langdon, Reid, Maynard
C: Sidebottom, Treloar, Pendlebury
HF: Elliott, Cloke, Howe
F: Broomhead, Moore, Swan
R: Grundy, Crisp, Adams
Int: Greenwood, Varcoe, DeGoey, Aish
Emg: Witts, Fasolo, Goldsack |
Generally like your work and thinking MightyMagpie, however with Goldsack out in the later team along with Witts and White and only Reid and Brown down back we seem vulnerable in the big men department. An injury to Brown or Reid during a game would be a disaster!
Maybe for that reason Marsh comes in and replaces Maynard or Ramsay who are fighting for the spot down back. This would allow Reid to switch forward if needed and Marsh to play a role on a big forward. The other issue is the Ruck - if White does not make it this year and Witts is out then the only back-up for Grundy is Moore. He can do the job and I am happy with that but there are plenty of others who are worried about putting a future key forward in the ruck regularly. |
Both fair comments.
I guess Langdon could play big (he has before with mixed success) or Moore could go back if needed, but that changes our forward structure and makes it smaller - I haven't minded that in the past when Cloke was missing.
Witts is a tough one (and including him would make moving Moore back in your first scenario easier as structure could be maintained). It would be tough on Maynard, Ramsay Or Aish to miss out. I think Marsh is still quite raw and I don't see him as AFL ready for a competing team just yet, but maybe he will have a great pre-season and prove me wrong.
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MightyMagpie
Joined: 04 Jun 2013
Location: WA
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Recent news (http://www.collingwoodfc.com.au/news/2016-01-06/goldsacks-test-of-patience) regarding Goldsack's knee isn't great. Given he may miss pre-season games it suggests that he may find it a bit difficult to be up and firing for round 1.
This got me thinking about what happens if Goldsack is unavailable. Leaving aside the possibility that Moore may be switched back (I think the Club will be reluctant to do that), my thoughts are that Frost would have to be next in line ahead of Marsh - giving us 3 KPBs in Brown, Reid and Frost with Langdon having some limited ability to play "big". Against the teams with only 2 big KPFs, this allows scope for Reid to play loose or even forward.
The big hole for me - and I'd be really interested to hear from those who have been watching training drills - is who will be our designated kick out specialists if Goldsack is unavailable? As I noted in my original post:
"I think he is our best kick out man (at least currently). I don't have the statistics so this is from my failing recollection of events, but in the first half of the season (remember when we were winning games?) Tyson was taking kickouts and we were getting the ball out of defence okay. I note that this was one area where Bucks quoted a couple of statistics at -0.2 and -0.4 suggesting we could get a one goal improvement per game if we can just sort out our kickouts. To me they went markedly downhill when Tyson got injured."
I don't see an obvious reliable kickout candidate in the backline and the best I can come up with is Pendlebury and Sidebottom with maybe Langdon and Williams third and fourth in line.
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Lazza wrote: | | CarringbushCigar wrote: | Has a straight vertical leap like his dad and can hit at highest point one grab.
Will be dangerous if isolated and we kick it to his advantage in the air.
Shows class in the ruck and can kick like his dad too.
Looks better and younger to me.
He has entered the charts with some momentum.
Its not too early to say superstar written all over him. |
I disagree. FAR too early to say that. |
Exactly. Had a solid debut season and aspects of his performances give you optimism that at a minimum he projects as a very handy long term player but way too early to be throwing "superstar" labels about. |
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