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Crimes that deserve the death penalty?

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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:01 pm
Post subject: Crimes that deserve the death penalty?Reply with quote

This is why there should still be the Death Penalty.

As that is exactly what he Deserves

https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/29942458/man-in-court-over-vic-girls-rape-murder/

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Last edited by Dave The Man on Thu Oct 29, 2015 6:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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5150 Sagittarius



Joined: 31 Aug 2005


PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:14 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Might need more info or link champ.
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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:18 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

5150 wrote:
Might need more info or link champ.


Watch the News.

Think Everyone would know about this

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mandy Sagittarius



Joined: 03 Jun 2001
Location: Glen Iris

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:24 pm
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Might want to reword the title a bit Dave.
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Dave The Man Scorpio



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Location: Someville, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:27 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

mandy wrote:
Might want to reword the title a bit Dave.


Why? and What To?

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stui magpie 

suge min pikk


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: Where ever i go, there I am

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:33 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

You mean this case?

Quote:
A man has appeared in court charged with the rape and murder of an 11-year-old girl during a party at her Victorian home.

Mildura man Bowe Maddigan, 29, appeared before Wangaratta Magistrates Court on Thursday.

He has been charged with murder, sexual penetration of a child under 16, and an indecent act on a child under 16.

Zoe Buttigieg's body was found by her mother in the family's Inchbold Street, Wangaratta, home on Sunday morning.


https://au.news.yahoo.com/vic/a/29942458/man-in-court-over-vic-girls-rape-murder/

If yes, I agree with Mandy. The title makes it sound like it was an 11 year old who killed and raped someone.

Maybe a title like "Man rapes and kills 11 year old girl" which is clearer.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Anywhere, I don't care I don't care I don't care

PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 7:32 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Pretty awful stuff. What can you say?
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 9:56 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Two words David

Death penalty

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 10:36 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, if you want to make this thread about that, then I have plenty to say. Let's start with the fact that any murder - any deliberate act of cutting a person's life short - is an especially heinous crime. We need to recognise that when we discuss the upper limits of punishment. By arguing against the death penalty, those of us who are against capital punishment are not downplaying the severity of crimes like these. We are asking what, as a society, is the most severe thing that we are willing to inflict on a perpetrator. I think I'm comfortable that we draw the line at life imprisonment.

A society that kills or tortures criminals, even if only the very worst perpetrators, is a barbaric society. That is the choice we make here.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 12:18 am
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David wrote:


A society that kills or tortures criminals, even if only the very worst perpetrators, is a barbaric society. That is the choice we make here.


I agree that the state - that lumbering thing of politics and clumsiness - should not be able to terminate the life of the individual. It is simply too error-prone. So I oppose the death penalty.

I'm less convinced by the bald statement above. It is barbaric to kill someone without cause - but in principle, when you have published a statute outlining a given penalty for a given crime, and the penalty is not rationally disproportionate to the harm of the crime, and someone has wilfully put themselves in default of the statute, I am not sure I see quite how or why it is "barbaric". It seems to me almost fairly contractual.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:35 am
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Well, I guess it depends on how we choose to define 'barbaric'. For me, killing a human being – when you don't have to and there is no conceivable benefit – is barbaric. The fact that certain states codify barbarity is neither here nor there, imho.

And it's worth pointing out that the perpetrator of this act, if guilty, committed two of the most barbaric acts imaginable. But our society is no longer founded upon the principle of an eye for an eye, and nor should it be. The justice system is not there to satisfy our revenge fantasies.

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:37 am
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I believe in the Sixth commandment.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Oxford, England

PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:20 am
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David wrote:
Well, I guess it depends on how we choose to define 'barbaric'. For me, killing a human being – when you don't have to and there is no conceivable benefit – is barbaric. The fact that certain states codify barbarity is neither here nor there, imho.

And it's worth pointing out that the perpetrator of this act, if guilty, committed two of the most barbaric acts imaginable. But our society is no longer founded upon the principle of an eye for an eye, and nor should it be. The justice system is not there to satisfy our revenge fantasies.


It does sound a little as though "barbaric" in your definition means something like "I don't like it". I think barbarism, if it has any meaning at all, means lawless and uncivilised, unreasonably harsh. The perpetrator fits that definition. A due process of law enacting pre-advertised consequences, less so.

As for "no conceivable benefit", I'm also not sure about that. The costs of lifetime incarceration are very high, and the money might better be spent on, say, cancer research. Then there is the moral signal sent by society that some acts are so repugnant that they warrant elimination of the perpetrator. I've heard the arguments about appeals costs etc exceeding lifetime incarceration but I doubt this is true. In any event, the benefits are certainly conceivable.

I think there are two good positions against the death penalty - (1) emotionally, it just feels wrong and degrading and disgusting to me ; and (2) it is irreversible and the system is fallible. The latter seems the best logical argument, but (1) is a very valid point of view.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:34 am
Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, your right David, Capitol punishment should be banned, it's too cruel and brutal, just stick him in general population, and let the jail justice system work its magic.
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:10 am
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^ You'll be sorry (but unsurprised) to hear I don't support prison violence either, and expect that the authorities do what they need to in order to ensure the physical safety of inmates.

I don't want to be a dick about this. We all feel sick imagining what the girl went through and what the parents are going through now, and imagining something like this happening to our child. It's perfectly natural to want people who made others suffer so terribly to suffer themselves. But we cannot and must not base our justice system on a desire for vengeance. That is mediaeval, and, yes, barbaric. It breeds violence.

Mugwump, I'm sure you wouldn't be protesting against the assertion that certain laws regarding capital or corporal punishment in Saudi Arabia are barbaric. If I'm right, then you clearly don't really believe that lawlessness is a necessary condition for barbarity.

The only other way in which you draw the line is 'uncivilised' and 'unreasonably harsh' – which are, just like 'barbarity', subjective value judgements. We're pretty much on the same page; you just have a different standard as to what you consider 'uncivilised'/'barbaric'/'unreasonable'.

I grant you that there could be conceivable arguments for the death penalty, so perhaps I was overstating that a little. But I don't think either of the ones you provide are particularly strong. Personally, I don't find the idea of assigning monetary value to human life particularly savoury – if you're going to go down that path then I think you need to apply it to all people, not just criminals. Basic Western human rights statutes have no place for the idea that a criminal (or certain kind of criminal) ceases to be human, after all.

Beyond that, you hypothesise that certain acts might warrant extermination. To that, I'd just ask one question: why? Why isn't permanent removal from society sufficient? I think that's the question that lies at the heart of my opposition to the death penalty.

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