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Crimes that deserve the death penalty?

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:39 am
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Mugwump wrote:
think positive wrote:
Also, the threat of the death penalty doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent. The woman in the story lives in one of the worst crime areas in Florida, and the 5 active states the talk of, are all down south, in high crime areas.

What is the main cause of the high criminality rate? Drugs, being poor, mental illness, lack of education, lack of parenting, or do they all roll together for a perfect storm?

I’ve also been watching a show where an adult goes back to schoolundercover, and it’s scary. Technology, social media have a lot to answer for, but for me the real problem is lack of self esteem, lack of parenting, lack of respect for others mainly but also self respect, lack of manners, lack of empathy. And you don’t have to go to the US to see it, just go to the local shopping centre.

Who goes to the mall in their pjs? At any time of day, have some pride! Fair enough if your ferrying kids to the doc in their pjs, but that’s it! People are glued to their phone and not raising their children, ignoring the people they are with and caught up with the make believe that is social media at its worst.


That’s it, isn’t it ? We talk and talk about “respect” while a large and growing section of our society lose it year by year. Yet nobody seems to really care enough to ask hard questions about it, and follow the hard answers.


Treating criminals' lives as inconveniences to be snuffed out doesn't exactly scream 'respect' to me. Are we trying to foster a culture of respecting human life, autonomy and wellbeing or not?

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:13 am
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^Concern with the need for "respect" has a very dark history, having been vociferously advocated alongside every abuse imaginable, from slavery and child labour, to unregulated factory work and institutional child rape.

Give me rights-based law over respect-based culture anyday.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:32 am
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David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
think positive wrote:
Also, the threat of the death penalty doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent. The woman in the story lives in one of the worst crime areas in Florida, and the 5 active states the talk of, are all down south, in high crime areas.

What is the main cause of the high criminality rate? Drugs, being poor, mental illness, lack of education, lack of parenting, or do they all roll together for a perfect storm?

I’ve also been watching a show where an adult goes back to schoolundercover, and it’s scary. Technology, social media have a lot to answer for, but for me the real problem is lack of self esteem, lack of parenting, lack of respect for others mainly but also self respect, lack of manners, lack of empathy. And you don’t have to go to the US to see it, just go to the local shopping centre.

Who goes to the mall in their pjs? At any time of day, have some pride! Fair enough if your ferrying kids to the doc in their pjs, but that’s it! People are glued to their phone and not raising their children, ignoring the people they are with and caught up with the make believe that is social media at its worst.


That’s it, isn’t it ? We talk and talk about “respect” while a large and growing section of our society lose it year by year. Yet nobody seems to really care enough to ask hard questions about it, and follow the hard answers.


Treating criminals' lives as inconveniences to be snuffed out doesn't exactly scream 'respect' to me. Are we trying to foster a culture of respecting human life, autonomy and wellbeing or not?


The autonomy and wellbeing of (eg) Julian knight is not even a tertiary issue. I think you’re probably wilfully missing the point here.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:59 am
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Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
think positive wrote:
Also, the threat of the death penalty doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent. The woman in the story lives in one of the worst crime areas in Florida, and the 5 active states the talk of, are all down south, in high crime areas.

What is the main cause of the high criminality rate? Drugs, being poor, mental illness, lack of education, lack of parenting, or do they all roll together for a perfect storm?

I’ve also been watching a show where an adult goes back to schoolundercover, and it’s scary. Technology, social media have a lot to answer for, but for me the real problem is lack of self esteem, lack of parenting, lack of respect for others mainly but also self respect, lack of manners, lack of empathy. And you don’t have to go to the US to see it, just go to the local shopping centre.

Who goes to the mall in their pjs? At any time of day, have some pride! Fair enough if your ferrying kids to the doc in their pjs, but that’s it! People are glued to their phone and not raising their children, ignoring the people they are with and caught up with the make believe that is social media at its worst.


That’s it, isn’t it ? We talk and talk about “respect” while a large and growing section of our society lose it year by year. Yet nobody seems to really care enough to ask hard questions about it, and follow the hard answers.


Treating criminals' lives as inconveniences to be snuffed out doesn't exactly scream 'respect' to me. Are we trying to foster a culture of respecting human life, autonomy and wellbeing or not?


The autonomy and wellbeing of (eg) Julian knight is not even a tertiary issue. I think you’re probably wilfully missing the point here.


I have to admit, i really wish they had shot him at the scene. Id cry no tears for him. I was always pro death sentence, but seeing how the victims suffer further, ok, lock them up for life (although i think they should work for their living expenses just as people on the outside have to, all criminals should).

Works both ways though David, you could say the murderer snuffed out the lives of their victims for being an inconvenience to them for what ever reason, no reason is good enough. The guy in the doco i watched shot the womans daughter even though she complied with his demands and handed over the money. And he cant answer why. He did show remorse, wept uncontrollably as her mother spoke at sentences, but what was he sorry for? Snuffing out her life or getting caught?

Julian Knight has never showed any remorse, and his bullshit law suits and appeals kept him fresh in the memory of the victims left behind. Sure, treat him humanely, 3 meals a day, a book from the library, a bed to sleep on, let him work for his keep, thats it. If hes in solitary its probably for his own protection, so what can you do about that? What would you do with him?

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:25 pm
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Indeed, it’s the unlawful killer who summarily snuffs out innocent life for the sake of “convenience”. Convenience doesn’t enter into it significantly where the state is concerned, as David presumably knows. I’m very glad Knight was not shot that night on the Merri Creek, however. No serious punishment should be meted without a fair trial. That’s what “liberty under the law” means.
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 12:35 pm
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ok, i wish he had shot himself, but hes a gutless tool.
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 4:53 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
think positive wrote:
Also, the threat of the death penalty doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent. The woman in the story lives in one of the worst crime areas in Florida, and the 5 active states the talk of, are all down south, in high crime areas.

What is the main cause of the high criminality rate? Drugs, being poor, mental illness, lack of education, lack of parenting, or do they all roll together for a perfect storm?

I’ve also been watching a show where an adult goes back to schoolundercover, and it’s scary. Technology, social media have a lot to answer for, but for me the real problem is lack of self esteem, lack of parenting, lack of respect for others mainly but also self respect, lack of manners, lack of empathy. And you don’t have to go to the US to see it, just go to the local shopping centre.

Who goes to the mall in their pjs? At any time of day, have some pride! Fair enough if your ferrying kids to the doc in their pjs, but that’s it! People are glued to their phone and not raising their children, ignoring the people they are with and caught up with the make believe that is social media at its worst.


That’s it, isn’t it ? We talk and talk about “respect” while a large and growing section of our society lose it year by year. Yet nobody seems to really care enough to ask hard questions about it, and follow the hard answers.


Treating criminals' lives as inconveniences to be snuffed out doesn't exactly scream 'respect' to me. Are we trying to foster a culture of respecting human life, autonomy and wellbeing or not?


The autonomy and wellbeing of (eg) Julian knight is not even a tertiary issue. I think you’re probably wilfully missing the point here.


On the contrary, it is a deeply important issue in a civil society. You can tell a lot about a society by the way it treats its (actual or perceived) wrongdoers.

think positive wrote:
Works both ways though David, you could say the murderer snuffed out the lives of their victims for being an inconvenience to them for what ever reason, no reason is good enough. The guy in the doco i watched shot the womans daughter even though she complied with his demands and handed over the money. And he cant answer why. He did show remorse, wept uncontrollably as her mother spoke at sentences, but what was he sorry for? Snuffing out her life or getting caught?


Precisely: murder is wrong and capital punishment is wrong, because killing is wrong. Before anyone protests, that is not to equate the two; all we need to know is that it is wrong enough for us to not need to contemplate it as a serious public policy proposal.

The reason I wrote 'convenience' is that there is no conceivable justification for capital punishment other than to save money. It is inconvenient to keep people alive in jail. Everything else – deterrence, societal protection, etc. – can be accomplished more than adequately through a lifelong imprisonment without parole (likely a bigger deterrent than the death penalty, if not an equal one). Whatever the rights and wrongs of lifelong imprisonment, it's elementary that any society that is contemplating maintaining or re-introducing capital punishment will already have that option on the table, so arguing in favour of capital punishment as part of a tough-on-crime agenda is a silly distraction.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:12 pm
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It’s not a non-issue, it’s just tertiary to the autonomy and well-being of society and his victims. We all accept that Knight’s autonomy and welfare are circumscribed by his sovereign actions. When he took the steps he did, he voluntarily cancelled his “rights” (whatever that word means - I prefer “liberties”, which are guaranteed by the force of our state and history, not by some toothless and undemocratic abstraction). What remains, in dealing with him after that point, is for us to uphold principles of justice that feel right to us.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:25 pm
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David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
think positive wrote:
Also, the threat of the death penalty doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent. The woman in the story lives in one of the worst crime areas in Florida, and the 5 active states the talk of, are all down south, in high crime areas.

What is the main cause of the high criminality rate? Drugs, being poor, mental illness, lack of education, lack of parenting, or do they all roll together for a perfect storm?

I’ve also been watching a show where an adult goes back to schoolundercover, and it’s scary. Technology, social media have a lot to answer for, but for me the real problem is lack of self esteem, lack of parenting, lack of respect for others mainly but also self respect, lack of manners, lack of empathy. And you don’t have to go to the US to see it, just go to the local shopping centre.

Who goes to the mall in their pjs? At any time of day, have some pride! Fair enough if your ferrying kids to the doc in their pjs, but that’s it! People are glued to their phone and not raising their children, ignoring the people they are with and caught up with the make believe that is social media at its worst.


That’s it, isn’t it ? We talk and talk about “respect” while a large and growing section of our society lose it year by year. Yet nobody seems to really care enough to ask hard questions about it, and follow the hard answers.


Treating criminals' lives as inconveniences to be snuffed out doesn't exactly scream 'respect' to me. Are we trying to foster a culture of respecting human life, autonomy and wellbeing or not?


The autonomy and wellbeing of (eg) Julian knight is not even a tertiary issue. I think you’re probably wilfully missing the point here.


On the contrary, it is a deeply important issue in a civil society. You can tell a lot about a society by the way it treats its (actual or perceived) wrongdoers.

think positive wrote:
Works both ways though David, you could say the murderer snuffed out the lives of their victims for being an inconvenience to them for what ever reason, no reason is good enough. The guy in the doco i watched shot the womans daughter even though she complied with his demands and handed over the money. And he cant answer why. He did show remorse, wept uncontrollably as her mother spoke at sentences, but what was he sorry for? Snuffing out her life or getting caught?


Precisely: murder is wrong and capital punishment is wrong, because killing is wrong. Before anyone protests, that is not to equate the two; all we need to know is that it is wrong enough for us to not need to contemplate it as a serious public policy proposal.

The reason I wrote 'convenience' is that there is no conceivable justification for capital punishment other than to save money. It is inconvenient to keep people alive in jail. Everything else – deterrence, societal protection, etc. – can be accomplished more than adequately through a lifelong imprisonment without parole (likely a bigger deterrent than the death penalty, if not an equal one). Whatever the rights and wrongs of lifelong imprisonment, it's elementary that any society that is contemplating maintaining or re-introducing capital punishment will already have that option on the table, so arguing in favour of capital punishment as part of a tough-on-crime agenda is a silly distraction.


Killing is wrong as imprisonment by force is wrong. What’s right and wrong changes when someone offends a very reasonable law with pre-advertised consequences, doesn’t it ?

As I said above, I suspect that capital punishment does have a deterrent effect, but as far as I am concerned it also has a far more important (and related) moral effect : a sanction which makes manifest to murderous thugs and their associates that the law is awesomely stronger and more impassive than they are. It also, as I noted, would probably have saved three innocent deaths a year in the UK (30 murders by convicted killers on release in the Uk in ten years). That, I am sure you will agree, is more than a convenience.

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pietillidie 



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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:14 pm
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The pretence of deterrence is potentially more problematic. If you can't make a dent in a problem by trading away your highest principle to get at it, what's left but to throw your hands in the air?
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HAL 

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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:17 pm
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I think I do.
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:36 pm
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And if you're trading away principles for no outcomes at high cost, the argument has nothing going for it, being neither principled nor of utility.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 9:17 pm
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^ what principle are you trading away ? Thou shalt not kill ? You have already traded away “Thou shalt not abduct and imprison”.

These are not principles, they are liberties. Liberty under the law is a principle. The right of parliament, not the monarch, to make laws is a principle. That the punishment should fit the crime is a principle. The specific penalty for transgression is not. Another principle is that an act of crime is a de facto surrender of certain liberties.

There is no principle here, just an historic view regarding proportionality which can be decided in light of the health of society by a justly constituted parliament of the people.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:41 pm
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Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
David wrote:
Mugwump wrote:
think positive wrote:
Also, the threat of the death penalty doesn’t seem to be much of a deterrent. The woman in the story lives in one of the worst crime areas in Florida, and the 5 active states the talk of, are all down south, in high crime areas.

What is the main cause of the high criminality rate? Drugs, being poor, mental illness, lack of education, lack of parenting, or do they all roll together for a perfect storm?

I’ve also been watching a show where an adult goes back to schoolundercover, and it’s scary. Technology, social media have a lot to answer for, but for me the real problem is lack of self esteem, lack of parenting, lack of respect for others mainly but also self respect, lack of manners, lack of empathy. And you don’t have to go to the US to see it, just go to the local shopping centre.

Who goes to the mall in their pjs? At any time of day, have some pride! Fair enough if your ferrying kids to the doc in their pjs, but that’s it! People are glued to their phone and not raising their children, ignoring the people they are with and caught up with the make believe that is social media at its worst.


That’s it, isn’t it ? We talk and talk about “respect” while a large and growing section of our society lose it year by year. Yet nobody seems to really care enough to ask hard questions about it, and follow the hard answers.


Treating criminals' lives as inconveniences to be snuffed out doesn't exactly scream 'respect' to me. Are we trying to foster a culture of respecting human life, autonomy and wellbeing or not?


The autonomy and wellbeing of (eg) Julian knight is not even a tertiary issue. I think you’re probably wilfully missing the point here.


On the contrary, it is a deeply important issue in a civil society. You can tell a lot about a society by the way it treats its (actual or perceived) wrongdoers.

think positive wrote:
Works both ways though David, you could say the murderer snuffed out the lives of their victims for being an inconvenience to them for what ever reason, no reason is good enough. The guy in the doco i watched shot the womans daughter even though she complied with his demands and handed over the money. And he cant answer why. He did show remorse, wept uncontrollably as her mother spoke at sentences, but what was he sorry for? Snuffing out her life or getting caught?


Precisely: murder is wrong and capital punishment is wrong, because killing is wrong. Before anyone protests, that is not to equate the two; all we need to know is that it is wrong enough for us to not need to contemplate it as a serious public policy proposal.

The reason I wrote 'convenience' is that there is no conceivable justification for capital punishment other than to save money. It is inconvenient to keep people alive in jail. Everything else – deterrence, societal protection, etc. – can be accomplished more than adequately through a lifelong imprisonment without parole (likely a bigger deterrent than the death penalty, if not an equal one). Whatever the rights and wrongs of lifelong imprisonment, it's elementary that any society that is contemplating maintaining or re-introducing capital punishment will already have that option on the table, so arguing in favour of capital punishment as part of a tough-on-crime agenda is a silly distraction.


Killing is wrong as imprisonment by force is wrong. What’s right and wrong changes when someone offends a very reasonable law with pre-advertised consequences, doesn’t it ?

As I said above, I suspect that capital punishment does have a deterrent effect, but as far as I am concerned it also has a far more important (and related) moral effect : a sanction which makes manifest to murderous thugs and their associates that the law is awesomely stronger and more impassive than they are. It also, as I noted, would probably have saved three innocent deaths a year in the UK (30 murders by convicted killers on release in the Uk in ten years). That, I am sure you will agree, is more than a convenience.


but life in prison with no chance for parole would achieve the same outcome

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:03 pm
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David wrote:

The reason I wrote 'convenience' is that there is no conceivable justification for capital punishment other than to save money. It is inconvenient to keep people alive in jail. Everything else – deterrence, societal protection, etc. – can be accomplished more than adequately through a lifelong imprisonment without parole (likely a bigger deterrent than the death penalty, if not an equal one). Whatever the rights and wrongs of lifelong imprisonment, it's elementary that any society that is contemplating maintaining or re-introducing capital punishment will already have that option on the table, so arguing in favour of capital punishment as part of a tough-on-crime agenda is a silly distraction.


except it doesnt
**Using conservative rough projections, the Commission estimates the annual costs of the present (death penalty) system to be $137 million per year.
**The cost of the present system with reforms recommended by the Commission to ensure a fair process would be $232.7 million per year.
**The cost of a system in which the number of death-eligible crimes was significantly narrowed would be $130 million per year.
**The cost of a system which imposes a maximum penalty of lifetime incarceration instead of the death penalty would be $11.5 million per year.

source: https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty

all that money and they still cant get it right!

problem is there is so much crime they are running out of space in the jails, and David you just have to see the size of them to believe it! 25 years ago on our honeymoon the bus driver pointed one out in the middle of the desert, and said "does that look big to you?' lots of yeses, and then he said "75% of it is underground!!' on that same trip we drove a circle around the San Francsico bridges, at night, and San Quentin is every bit as confronting as it looks on telly.

so what do you do to deter criminals from committing murder & other heinous crimes?

here are some figures, a year old mind you, bur good news, serious crimes are actually dropping

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2017/05/05/report-the-number-of-people-serving-life-sentences-in-the-u-s-is-surging-infographic/#16e03170691d

wouldnt some kind of work reform program be good? they could earn visitation or extra amenities. make there life out to be of some value?

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