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Crimes that deserve the death penalty?

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:00 am
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David wrote:
^ You'll be sorry (but unsurprised) to hear I don't support prison violence either, and expect that the authorities do what they need to in order to ensure the physical safety of inmates.

I don't want to be a dick about this. We all feel sick imagining what the girl went through and what the parents are going through now, and imagining something like this happening to our child. It's perfectly natural to want people who made others suffer so terribly to suffer themselves. But we cannot and must not base our justice system on a desire for vengeance. That is mediaeval, and, yes, barbaric. It breeds violence.

Mugwump, I'm sure you wouldn't be protesting against the assertion that certain laws regarding capital or corporal punishment in Saudi Arabia are barbaric. If I'm right, then you clearly don't really believe that lawlessness is a necessary condition for barbarity.

The only other way in which you draw the line is 'uncivilised' and 'unreasonably harsh' – which are, just like 'barbarity', subjective value judgements. We're pretty much on the same page; you just have a different standard as to what you consider 'uncivilised'/'barbaric'/'unreasonable'.

I grant you that there could be conceivable arguments for the death penalty, so perhaps I was overstating that a little. But I don't think either of the ones you provide are particularly strong. Personally, I don't find the idea of assigning monetary value to human life particularly savoury – if you're going to go down that path then I think you need to apply it to all people, not just criminals. Basic Western human rights statutes have no place for the idea that a criminal (or certain kind of criminal) ceases to be human, after all.

Beyond that, you hypothesise that certain acts might warrant extermination. To that, I'd just ask one question: why? Why isn't permanent removal from society sufficient? I think that's the question that lies at the heart of my opposition to the death penalty.


because we cant afford to pay for it. keeping a prisoner in prison cost hundreds and thousands over their lifetime. how about if they have to work for everything? just like people do on the outside. make them earn their food, their bed, their tv time, etc etc.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:12 am
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Again, you're putting a monetary value on human life. You're saying "it's only worth $x to keep a certain person alive". You may be comfortable applying such logic to violent criminals, but to me it's one step away from naziism and other anti-humanist ideologies.
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Last edited by David on Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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HAL 

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:15 am
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Again, What you said was too complicated for me.
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:46 am
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David wrote:
Again, you're putting a monetary value on human life. You're saying "it's only worth $x to keep a certain person alive". You may be comfortable applying such logic to violent criminals, but to me it's one step away from naziism and other anti-humanist ideologies.


but the fact is someone has to pay, nothing is free

im more than happy for them not to have a mattress, a blanket, or food, im sure they can forage on rats, there must be an old mine somewhere you can dump them at the bottom of, save on the cost of prison guards too.

by the way, just when do those violent criminals get to share the love? when does their victim get some kind of sorry in any shape or form from these heathens you want to hand raise free of charge

and again, nothing is free, someone, meaning we, have to pay,

and guess what? we have to earn our living, our comforts, why the hell shouldnt they?

as for the comparison with the nazis, harldy, they were killing innocent people for absolutely no reason, so the only comparison i can see would be with the criminals

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Jezza Taurus



Joined: 06 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 3:48 pm
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I understand that many people in favour of the death penalty see it as a form of reciprocal justice for those who commit heinous crimes but it's been proven that the death penalty does not serve as a deterrent plus what kind of society are we living in when the state can sanction the killing of somebody. Those who commit a serious crime such as murder or rape deserve a lengthy jail sentence or possibly a life sentence depending on the circumstances of each individual case.

In the past I've been somewhat undecided on this issue but the more research and reading I've done on the issue the more I've found that the death penalty has little benefits for society in reducing crime and the amount of expenditure that is required for such a process to take place is higher than keeping someone imprisoned for life.

The death penalty has the ability to be opened up to uncertainty and contentious issues in regards to a person's guilt and I'd prefer to live in a society where such practices don't take place and the state doesn't have the power to legislate in favour of it.

Thankfully Australia has moved past this but that's not to say that the justice system has been all that great recently and I think the issue of sentencing is something that has to be hot on the agenda as too many offenders are receiving lenient sentences that do not reflect the serious nature of the crime committed.

In regards to this particular case it's horrific and the case of the mother and daughter being murdered has been disturbing to read and hear about recently.

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Skids Cancer



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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:18 pm
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You're making the mistake of calling this monster a human David.
Scum like this are oxygen thieves who do not deserve to co exist with humans.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:46 pm
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One of the difficult but essential things we need to reconcile in our minds is that people like this - and Anders Breivik, and Adrian Bayley, and even Adolf Hitler - are human beings, complex human beings like you and me with emotions and hopes and dreams, not monsters or extraterrestrials.

I know it seems weird for me to say this as an atheist, but I sometimes wish that our society would remember some of its own Christian cultural background, and the fundamental belief that all people are loved by God, and all are capable of redemption and forgiveness. That's not so much an argument for or against capital punishment as an argument for humanity and empathy. It's a beautiful doctrine, and it saddens me that our society no longer seems to have any time for it (if it ever did). Our society has become one of hatred, and judgement, and of kicking the weak while they're down. How we treat criminals is actually a hugely significant part of that.

I am not saying that we should feel less empathy for victims and their families. It is essential that we can put ourselves in their shoes. But if you profess to care so much about children, remember that this alleged rapist/murderer was once a child too who needed love and compassion. We can help children to grow up with empathy by providing a positive example in the way we treat and talk about others.

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luvdids Sagittarius



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:05 pm
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think positive wrote:

but the fact is someone has to pay, nothing is free

im more than happy for them not to have a mattress, a blanket, or food, im sure they can forage on rats, there must be an old mine somewhere you can dump them at the bottom of, save on the cost of prison guards too.

by the way, just when do those violent criminals get to share the love? when does their victim get some kind of sorry in any shape or form from these heathens you want to hand raise free of charge

and again, nothing is free, someone, meaning we, have to pay,

and guess what? we have to earn our living, our comforts, why the hell shouldnt they?

as for the comparison with the nazis, harldy, they were killing innocent people for absolutely no reason, so the only comparison i can see would be with the criminals


Geez I hope you don't donate to the Salvos. I don't & never will for the simple reason that they provide Christmas presents to prisoners. They keep that little part of their charity quiet.
Poor prisoner, you broke the law, ended up in jail so here you go, have a nice little present. Rolling Eyes Get stuffed! More than happy to donate Christmas presents to the needy, not the imprisoned! Evil or Very Mad
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:13 pm
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Well, as I said above, it sounds like they're real Christians. Good on them. A bit of kindness can go a long way.

Before you bag out the Salvos, probably worth keeping in mind that they already do way more for the poor and needy than most people on here.

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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:19 pm
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luvdids wrote:
think positive wrote:

but the fact is someone has to pay, nothing is free

im more than happy for them not to have a mattress, a blanket, or food, im sure they can forage on rats, there must be an old mine somewhere you can dump them at the bottom of, save on the cost of prison guards too.

by the way, just when do those violent criminals get to share the love? when does their victim get some kind of sorry in any shape or form from these heathens you want to hand raise free of charge

and again, nothing is free, someone, meaning we, have to pay,

and guess what? we have to earn our living, our comforts, why the hell shouldnt they?

as for the comparison with the nazis, harldy, they were killing innocent people for absolutely no reason, so the only comparison i can see would be with the criminals


Geez I hope you don't donate to the Salvos. I don't & never will for the simple reason that they provide Christmas presents to prisoners. They keep that little part of their charity quiet.
Poor prisoner, you broke the law, ended up in jail so here you go, have a nice little present. Rolling Eyes Get stuffed! More than happy to donate Christmas presents to the needy, not the imprisoned! Evil or Very Mad


I donate to the Salvos.

I wasn't aware of that but don't really care. Goodonem. I've known a few decent blokes who did time in their youth for dumb things and fixed their shit up after getting out. One young bloke I tried to help out getting him to footy etc when he was in under 13's playing in my sons team but his Dad was too big a bad influence. He's 25 now and my sons saw his mug on the "wanted" on the cops Facebook the other day. Sad Silly bastard.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 7:17 pm
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^ Some people have their cards marked pretty young. Doesn't mean some won't turn it around, but it's a pretty good predictor of future behaviour unfortunately. Sad
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stui magpie 

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:16 pm
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^

Yeah it's a waste. he was actually a good kid but when his dad was out of gaol he was the apprentice, breaking into cars, stealing car stereos and whatever else they could find at the train station carpark about 400m from home.

I'd go to pick the kid up on Sunday morning to take him to footy and more than once he's done an all nighter at some much older peoples house, smoking cones. Got his first tatt at 13.

Cops and the system gave him a lot of slack for a variety of reasons but all that did in the end was make him feel bulletproof so the penny never dropped and he kept going and escalated.

Silly bastard. Sad

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:20 pm
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luvdids wrote:
think positive wrote:

but the fact is someone has to pay, nothing is free

im more than happy for them not to have a mattress, a blanket, or food, im sure they can forage on rats, there must be an old mine somewhere you can dump them at the bottom of, save on the cost of prison guards too.

by the way, just when do those violent criminals get to share the love? when does their victim get some kind of sorry in any shape or form from these heathens you want to hand raise free of charge

and again, nothing is free, someone, meaning we, have to pay,

and guess what? we have to earn our living, our comforts, why the hell shouldnt they?

as for the comparison with the nazis, harldy, they were killing innocent people for absolutely no reason, so the only comparison i can see would be with the criminals


Geez I hope you don't donate to the Salvos. I don't & never will for the simple reason that they provide Christmas presents to prisoners. They keep that little part of their charity quiet.
Poor prisoner, you broke the law, ended up in jail so here you go, have a nice little present. Rolling Eyes Get stuffed! More than happy to donate Christmas presents to the needy, not the imprisoned! Evil or Very Mad


Thanks for the heads up Wink

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:23 pm
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David wrote:
One of the difficult but essential things we need to reconcile in our minds is that people like this - and Anders Breivik, and Adrian Bayley, and even Adolf Hitler - are human beings, complex human beings like you and me with emotions and hopes and dreams, not monsters or extraterrestrials.

I know it seems weird for me to say this as an atheist, but I sometimes wish that our society would remember some of its own Christian cultural background, and the fundamental belief that all people are loved by God, and all are capable of redemption and forgiveness. That's not so much an argument for or against capital punishment as an argument for humanity and empathy. It's a beautiful doctrine, and it saddens me that our society no longer seems to have any time for it (if it ever did). Our society has become one of hatred, and judgement, and of kicking the weak while they're down. How we treat criminals is actually a hugely significant part of that.

I am not saying that we should feel less empathy for victims and their families. It is essential that we can put ourselves in their shoes. But if you profess to care so much about children, remember that this alleged rapist/murderer was once a child too who needed love and compassion. We can help children to grow up with empathy by providing a positive example in the way we treat and talk about others.


And yet you still haven't answered the question, who is going to pay for it all?

My father was and is, a mean nasty violent drunk, it doesn't give me the right to go out and do that to someone else. Indeed I learnt from it, don't go out and do it to someone else. I'm $£$%^%%$ over this shit.

And jezza as for the it's no deterrent, it sure is to the bastard with the lead in his black heart, or the electric shock zapping his body!

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:29 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
luvdids wrote:
think positive wrote:

but the fact is someone has to pay, nothing is free

im more than happy for them not to have a mattress, a blanket, or food, im sure they can forage on rats, there must be an old mine somewhere you can dump them at the bottom of, save on the cost of prison guards too.

by the way, just when do those violent criminals get to share the love? when does their victim get some kind of sorry in any shape or form from these heathens you want to hand raise free of charge

and again, nothing is free, someone, meaning we, have to pay,

and guess what? we have to earn our living, our comforts, why the hell shouldnt they?

as for the comparison with the nazis, harldy, they were killing innocent people for absolutely no reason, so the only comparison i can see would be with the criminals


Geez I hope you don't donate to the Salvos. I don't & never will for the simple reason that they provide Christmas presents to prisoners. They keep that little part of their charity quiet.
Poor prisoner, you broke the law, ended up in jail so here you go, have a nice little present. Rolling Eyes Get stuffed! More than happy to donate Christmas presents to the needy, not the imprisoned! Evil or Very Mad


I donate to the Salvos.

I wasn't aware of that but don't really care. Goodonem. I've known a few decent blokes who did time in their youth for dumb things and fixed their shit up after getting out. One young bloke I tried to help out getting him to footy etc when he was in under 13's playing in my sons team but his Dad was too big a bad influence. He's 25 now and my sons saw his mug on the "wanted" on the cops Facebook the other day. Sad Silly bastard.


And yet he did have someone try to help him. When does it become time for him to help himself?

I know a couple of blokes that did time too, for things like theft, not hurting someone, and yes they have come good and good on them, but some people do not deserve another chance.

Big difference between stealing someone's car when it's parked on the kerb, than holding a gun to someone's head, and taking it that way. You can't just put it all in one pile. Prison is too easy.

Something like this might actually teach them something
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/tent-city-jail-where-prisoners-wear-pink-and-swelter-in-120-degree-heat/article/2546924

You have to give people a reason to rehabilitate, most of em are lazy sods, you have to put them out of their comfort zone to get them to shift themselves

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