Oregon shooting
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Typo. Sorry. Your point was that there is no significant difference in the proportions of white males and mass school murderers, for which you provided the figures, respectively, of 79% and 78%. These figures of yours are hopelessly wrong, of course: while the 79% (originally provided by me) is right, your "78%" is completely daft - 78% is the percentage of all whites: only half of them are male. The correct figures, in other words, are as I said: 79% of US school mass murderers are white males, which is double the expected percentage/ Only 39% of Americans are white and male.
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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All adults should be drowned at birth.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | We need to ban young men (15-45). They are simply too dangerous. |
You say this stuff as if it's meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but sometimes I get the impression that you sincerely have a prejudice against the male gender.
Of course men are massively over-represented in gun crime statistics, just as they are in all other violent crime. But shouldn't we be trying to understand what's causing this dysfunction rather than throwing out glib comments that essentially amount to "men are bad"?
Indigenous over-representation in crime statistics requires careful, compassionate analysis, not vilification. The same ought to go for other demographics.
| think positive wrote: | | Since I have two 20 something daughters, I'll second that! |
Perhaps if you both had sons you would feel differently. |
I think John McEnroe used to have en expression that seems apt here. More & more you're sounding like Hetty Johnston.
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Tannin wrote: | | All adults should be drowned at birth. |
I'd settle for the NRA
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Hetty Johnston? That's a new one. 
| Tannin wrote: | | Typo. Sorry. Your point was that there is no significant difference in the proportions of white males and mass school murderers, for which you provided the figures, respectively, of 79% and 78%. These figures of yours are hopelessly wrong, of course: while the 79% (originally provided by me) is right, your "78%" is completely daft - 78% is the percentage of all whites: only half of them are male. The correct figures, in other words, are as I said: 79% of US school mass murderers are white males, which is double the expected percentage/ Only 39% of Americans are white and male. |
The point being that ethnicity seems all but irrelevant, given that whites are neither under-represented nor over-represented in gun crime stats. The only over-representation here relates to gender. That being so, I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention ethnicity at all.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Another gun shooting this time in Parramatta Sydney. A police officer killed by another disaffected, inadequate if not pathetic young male. |
RIP Curtis Cheng - just an ordinary bloke who worked for the Police in finance ( not a police officer) just leaving work to go home to his wife and family 
Shot in the back of the head by a gutless coward 
Sincere condolescences to Mr Cheng's wife, family and friends.
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| watt price tully wrote: | | More & more you're sounding like Hetty Johnston. |
More and more you're sounding like Andrea Dworkin. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | The point being that ethnicity seems all but irrelevant, given that whites are neither under-represented nor over-represented in gun crime stats. The only over-representation here relates to gender. |
Duh. Because the paranoid rantings of the gun control crowd is directly targeted at fear of these terrible black people who do all the murders which is why Good, God-fearing, White Americans need to protect themselves by walking around carrying automatic weapons. Because when we look at the facts we discover that 8 out of 10 school massacres are committed by white males.
The gun-nut lobby, in other words, is operating in a fact-free zone. As usual.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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David is completely correct, of course - almost all mass shootings are done by men. Within that, about 80% of the men are white. This is because about 80% of Us men are white, amd ethnicity is irrelevant in predicting who might become a shooter.
The pernicious NRA, which is at the root of the problem, is apparently well over 90% white, though records are sketchy. No doubt there are a lot of racists and fruitcakes in that lot.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | Of course men are massively over-represented in gun crime statistics, just as they are in all other violent crime. But shouldn't we be trying to understand what's causing this dysfunction rather than throwing out glib comments that essentially amount to "men are bad"? |
We already know what is causing it: All of the other policies championed by Team Gun Loon which create a dysfunctional two-tiered society, in concert with said policies which put more guns in the hands of more unstable psychiatric cases or people having temporary bouts of madness.
The system works a treat: Cause higher crime and violence, then use higher crime and violence to justify doubling-down on the policies which cause higher crime and violence.
There is no mystery here at all.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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The underlying causes are probably unknowable, and so entangled that isolating one or two will falsify the picture rather than sharpen it. Inequality, family breakdown, exposure to violent media, emulation of past shootings, or the simple rates of dissociative mental illness in a large population all probably play a part. Which you prefer will depend on your ideological preferences.
The one constant factor in every case, however, is that when someone's hatreds boil over, they have ready access to weapons that allow them to kill many people very quickly. Fix that and the problem will largely go away. Obama's speech nailed it very well.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | The underlying causes are probably unknowable, and so entangled that isolating one or two will falsify the picture rather than sharpen it. Inequality, family breakdown, exposure to violent media, emulation of past shootings, or the simple rates of dissociative mental illness in a large population all probably play a part. Which you prefer will depend on your ideological preferences.
The one constant factor in every case, however, is that when someone's hatreds boil over, they have ready access to weapons that allow them to kill many people very quickly. Fix that and the problem will largely go away. Obama's speech nailed it very well. |
As already stated, the latter is a no-brainer, but I was responding to David's post and talking about (male) violence broadly.
On that topic, this is one of the stablest bodies of knowledge getting around in the behavioural and social sciences. The biology and psychiatry of male violence is well-known. The main social correlates are well-known because you have great crime data worldwide and access to well-studied prison populations. That gives you the ability to get as close to stability in causal theory formation as you can in the social sciences because you can model the problem from the biology, through to the individual and family behaviour, and on to larger social units.
The writer who got me into this topic many years ago was James Gilligan, and his basic premises only become more verified over time.
So, the ideology in the case of broader male violence is claiming we don't understand it well enough to reduce it within reasonable policy constraints.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | More & more you're sounding like Hetty Johnston. |
More and more you're sounding like Andrea Dworkin. |
Nah, Barbara Ehrenreich & Juliette Mitchell are more up my alley.
But I do distance myself from loonies like Charlton Heston, Family first & David Leyonhjelm  
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I like what I've read from Ehrenreich (though I'm not sure what TP would think of her ), but I'd give Freudians a miss. Sometimes a gun is just a gun.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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