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How many Syrian refugees should Australia take?

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How many Syrian refugees should Australia take?
None
52%
 52%  [ 21 ]
A few hundred
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
A few thousand
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
Over ten thousand
5%
 5%  [ 2 ]
As many as possible
35%
 35%  [ 14 ]
Total Votes : 40

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:05 am
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Pies4Shaw wrote:
Of course, even if percentage comparisons were provided, they would require cautious consideration - recent immigrant populations have, over the last 100 years, frequently been involved in more crime than more-established sub-populations of people within communities. So, mere disproportionate representation of recently immigrated sub-populations in "crime" statistics would be wholly unsurprising. Typically, that says more about access to social and economic resources than it says about whether particular sub-populations are comprised of "good" or "bad" people.


Well said – that's a really important consideration to take into account.

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Skids Cancer

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Joined: 11 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:02 am
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Oh please .... like poor Kamal?.....

Kamal (46 years old) and his wife Shadia (42 years old) have ten children under 18 and live on Hartz IV (the German social benefit system). They have a monthly net income of about 3000 €. In addition, all their spending on rent, health care, transport, heating, etc. are paid by the state.

Kamal never worked or had a regular job, never finished school, and never learned a profession. Now he claims that he is "ill." Klaus, the landlord of Kamal says, "The man is fit." He even confessed to Klaus that he lies when he says he is ill. "He told me once, 'Why should I work if I can live well without/'" Klaus quotes Kamal.

Kamal is obliged to regularly report his joblessness to the Federal Employment Office (Bundes Agentur für Arbeit) in his town. He does so when he is invited for a job interview. But he always alleges that he is "sick:" He allegedly has "unbearable pains in his back and joints." Therefore, he cannot take any job. The only one who knows the truth about Kamal is his landlord Klaus.

Klaus and many other Germans are outraged about Kamal and his like. "It is us, taxpayers who have to finance odd buggers like Kamal. This makes me sick." Klaus frowns at me.

On the other hand, Kamal's neighbour, Dieter works for a mail company. For working 8 hours daily, he merely get 800 € ($1000) at the end of the month. From this salary he has got to pay his rent and the rest of his expenditure. Left for him is something around 400 € ($500).

http://www.frontpagemag.com/point/183720/80-turkish-muslim-settlers-germany-live-welfare-daniel-greenfield

Or this ....


BERLIN (Reuters) - The number of migrants claiming German welfare benefits soared by 169 percent last year, data showed on Monday, a figure likely to further boost anti-immigrant groups such as the Alternative for Germany (AfD), which performed well in a weekend election.

Around 975,000 migrants were receiving benefits in accordance with the Act on Benefits for Asylum Seekers at the end of 2015, the Federal Statistics Office said. That marked the sixth consecutive yearly rise and compared with 363,000 in 2014.

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Last edited by Skids on Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:09 am; edited 1 time in total
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:07 am
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You're on the case of refugee dole bludgers now? Come on. Rolling Eyes If the issue is a non-incentivised welfare system combined with low wages, then that's a systemic problem that has to be dealt with and one that some people will inevitably take advantage of. This has nothing to do with refugees.
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Skids Cancer

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Joined: 11 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:14 am
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Well you're using their inability to be able to access social and economic resources as a cause for them committing more crimes than locals aren't you?

Kamal didn’t seem to find it too difficult.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:32 am
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There's mountains of evidence indicating that immigrants from refugee backgrounds experience socioeconomic disadvantage compared to the general population. Our friend Kamal may lack incentive to work, but he's hardly living like a prince.

You seem to be convinced that refugees are just scum full stop. That's a sad position to take.

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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:43 pm
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David wrote:
There's mountains of evidence indicating that immigrants from refugee backgrounds experience socioeconomic disadvantage compared to the general population. Our friend Kamal may lack incentive to work, but he's hardly living like a prince.

You seem to be convinced that refugees are just scum full stop. That's a sad position to take.


Not at all. I just think that there are many imposters, that Islam is dangerous and that we should be cautious and more stringent with who we let in.

When the majority of so called refugees are 20-40 year old males, chanting aloha snackbar, showing scant regard for local laws and authorities and refusing to assimilate into their new homes... that is a flashing red light for me.

The open doir policy us a recipe for disaster and if what's hapoening in Europe isn't enough proof of that for you, then I don't know what is.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 12:45 pm
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I agree. Who let you in?
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:12 pm
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David wrote:
You're on the case of refugee dole bludgers now? Come on. Rolling Eyes If the issue is a non-incentivised welfare system combined with low wages, then that's a systemic problem that has to be dealt with and one that some people will inevitably take advantage of. This has nothing to do with refugees.

Assuming the figures are even remotely accurate, one can't help but ask what sort of society they are running that they do not consider it unconscionable to permit someone to work for such an appallingly low return. That, right there, is a recipe for social disintegration and homelessness.

Kamal may not be contemplating jihad any time soon but the chances of Dieter going, as it were, "postal" are probably greatly exacerbated (even assuming he's a perfectly nice chap) by the likely knowledge that he's being exploited in a system that obviously couldn't care less about how he is used, abused, chewed up and spat out.
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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 3:13 pm
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Pies4shaw wrote:
I agree. Who let you in?


Laughing Laughing

My ancestors helped build this country. Some were taken from their family and forced to work as farm hands as young as 14, some joined the gold rush in Victoria and some of thos headed over here to WA when gold was discovered in Kalgoorlie.

The 3 generations before me all served in the armed forces and fought for our country.

Who let you in?

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 6:49 pm
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^^^ it isn't something that I could imagine ever being remotely interested in but, with that caveat, the answer is that, I'm afraid, my ancestors seem to have been required to attend (and to fight various English and, more recently, Australian wars), from reasonably early on. Unfortunately, many would say, as a consequence no one had the opportunity to screen my out, either.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:13 pm
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David wrote:
Pies4Shaw wrote:
Of course, even if percentage comparisons were provided, they would require cautious consideration - recent immigrant populations have, over the last 100 years, frequently been involved in more crime than more-established sub-populations of people within communities. So, mere disproportionate representation of recently immigrated sub-populations in "crime" statistics would be wholly unsurprising. Typically, that says more about access to social and economic resources than it says about whether particular sub-populations are comprised of "good" or "bad" people.


Well said – that's a really important consideration to take into account.


Individual cases tell us little. Population statistics are what matters.

It is fairly meaningless to talk of "good" or "bad" people at the population level. There are good and bad characters, and morality is a matter of individual character. But it is evident that human beings are deeply formed by culture, and there are clearly good and bad cultures - more or less violent, more or less masculine, more or less rooted in reason - relative to our own, as seen from the perspective of our culture. There are also sub-populations who are more likely to commit "crime" (the quote marks from the OP above are telling) - young men being the most obvious.

Merkel has encouraged mass immigration of a large number of young men from cultures which are troubled. The statistics at Koln station this year on NYE showed 92 arrests, of whom a mere 16 were German - a startling number in a society as well-ordered and law-abiding as Germany. What happened a year earlier on NYE in Koln is well-documented. There has also been a rising ride of terrorist offences in Germany, with five murderous Islamist attacks carried out in Germany in the last fifteen months, including the atrocity at a Christmas market killing at least 10 and severely wounding 48 people. France and Belgium's problems with Islamic immigration and integration are long-standing and manifest, and it appears that Germany is headed the same way.

Germany has had a dribble of terrorist events for many years, from the Baader-Meinhof gang to Neo-Nazi groups. But the rate of increase in Islamist violence far exceeds that of the past, as a two minute Google search will show.

These are all evidence that Merkel has taken a reckless and ill-considered gamble with the security and lives of the people and society she is employed to protect. I hope she is trounced at the polls later this year, though the absence of a credible alternative makes it likely she will scrape back.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 10:30 pm
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http://www.datagraver.com/case/people-killed-by-terrorism-per-year-in-western-europe-1970-2015
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:08 pm
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^ Indeed. look at the second and third charts you provided. Since the retirement of ETA and the IRA (very specific and localised political groups requiring resolute political and military action to defeat them) almost all of the terrorism since 2004 has been Islamist in nature, and the rising trend is startling over the last two years. There is a blip in 2011 caused by the Breivik monstrosity, but otherwise nearly all terrorism is Islamist and it is rising very sharply. I see little abatement in the forces driving it.
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Morrigu Capricorn



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:12 pm
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Syrian refugees are not the primary concern - it is the North Africans!
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:13 pm
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What it also shows is that these violent political movements are transitory in nature and tend to come and go with the wind. This, one presumes, is the heyday of ISIS, an organisation whose life expectancy in its Syrian and Iraqi headquarters seems limited. It may not be the last we see of Islamist terrorism in the West, but as the previous rise and fall of Al-Qaeda shows, these organisations are often a focal point around which levels of violence seem to ebb and flow.

Contrary to right-wing rhetoric, then, there is nothing to suggest that Islamist terrorism is a permanent feature of countries with large migrant Muslim populations, any more than the IRA was a permanent feature of Irishness or Catholocism or the Baader-Meinhof approach was a permanent feature of radical German leftism.

So, the challenge remains to consign this particular wave of terrorism to history as soon as possible. That is a goal that we can all agree upon, and one that many of the social democrats you criticise are working hard to achieve.

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