How many Syrian refugees should Australia take?

[David]

The point being that "they" may not have "planned" anything as such. However organised this was, we're still very much talking about petty crime gangs here, not some kind of Muslim conspiracy.

[think positive]

[HAL]

Bigger than a pin.

[Morrigu]

[David]

Maybe you would have done the same in his shoes. Who knows?

[Morrigu]

[think positive]

[Mugwump]

So, it seems that he was a people smuggler, prepared to put people to sea in leaking boats with a high chance of death to make money. I haven't walked a mile in his shoes, but when there is that much filth on the soles, I think it is better not to.

In a sense this is trivial stuff - any of us might have been concentration camp guards, given the right background and indoctrination. The only way to strive against that kind of predestination is to hold people responsible for their actions. Perhaps this man, if he loved his children, has paid his price. But his actions, if they were as reported, are repugnant, and defending them as you did here, David, seems a route to a hellish place where no-one is responsible for anything.

[David]

What's repugnant to me is people who have the presumptuousness to think they can judge a man in his situation. One man's people smuggler is another man's emigration facilitator. You think life's a paradise for refugees in Turkey? You don't think they would appreciate any chance of finding a better life? Is it inherently immoral to provide that service and take money for it?

You could see him as an exploiter of the innocent, cruelly taking people's fortunes away and turning a blind eye to the dangers. But the fact that he put his own children on one of these boats suggests to me that that's not how he saw his job at all, and that he genuinely believed that the pros of getting on a boat far outweighed the risks. I'm not at all convinced that you, Morrigu or TP would not have done the same in his situation, because I see no reason to believe that any of you (or I, for that matter) are morally superior to him.

I don't know if a world without personal responsibility would be a hellish place, but I'm pretty sure that a Syrian refugee camp is one.

[Mugwump]

Ah, so you find "presumptuousness" which says that people are responsible for their actions more repugnant than making money by sending people out to die ?

This case may not be as reported, in which case the man deserves our sympathy for a terrible tragedy. But if he was running this show for profit, what exactly would he have to do to deserve your repugnance ?

Is he no worse than the people in a similar situation who did not choose to become death-trap magnates ?

[David]

Before you continue to moralise, I'd like you to provide approximate answers for the following questions: 1) what percentage of refugees on boats in the Mediterranean died or required rescuing? 2) what percentage of refugees left behind in Turkey, regional refugee camps or Syria itself have died of related maladies (e.g. disease, starvation, malnutrition, violence)? 3) what is the quality of life for a refugee in Europe compared to that of one living in Turkey or in a camp, and given that, what is the cost/benefit analysis for an ordinary person considering embarking on this kind of dangerous trip?

Let us at least weigh up those questions before we start assessing the moral failings of people smugglers. That is to say, at minimum, let us demonstrate that they are doing more harm than good.

Edit: a reminder that people smuggling is far from unambiguously wrong:

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/wwii-resistance_wartime--people-smugglers--finally-feted-as-heroes/40929358

And yes, these were dangerous ventures that almost certainly cost lives.

[Mugwump]

^ i don't know the answers to your questions, and they are good and fair questions. My starting point is that he is being prosecuted for running a people smuggling business. If he was running a humanitarian enterprise , then i will accept that the case is (as I wrote in my post) "not as reported". However, it does not seem from the arraignment that this is so.

Your questions seem to me relevant to the question of whether a parent is morally right to put his/her child on such a boat. Those are complex questions, and Judgement requires uance am sympathy. They are not relevant to someone running a business in unseaworthy traffic and making profit from exploiting the kinds of conditions in the camps that you imply.

"Moralising" is such a nasty word, but of course it is making a judgement about right and wrong, and no different to what you are (rightly) doing, here.

[David]

If you consider the link in my (edited) post above, it's far from inconceivable that some of the people smuggling Jews to safety took payment for their services. This is far from uncommon in such situations, needless to say. I think what that shows us is less about human greed than people not being in circumstances in which they can afford to be purely altruistic. Indeed, it may be the money that motivates them to do it in the first place � and if that happens to save lives, then all to the good. Those of us who live in a free market economy and charge for the most trivial of services can surely understand.

That is not to say that I think that there are no people smugglers who are cruel or manipulative or deceitful. I'm sure there are some who use their positions of power to fleece the vulnerable of their hard-earned money. If there is evidence that this man was one such person, we would have good reason to think that he acted unethically. Otherwise, the mere fact that he was a people smuggler gives us no clue as to his motivations or personal righteousness.

As for the accusation of moralising, I did not mean to cause offence; however, I do think that calling a disadvantaged person from a distant country in circumstances we can scarcely relate to a 'scumbag' (as Morrigu did) or a valid target for our 'repugnance' (as you implied) is indeed moralising, of the worst kind. I may have been guilty of doing that myself (I don't believe I am in this instance), but it's certainly something I would try to avoid.

[Mugwump]

^ fair points David. I think the critical thing here is that anyone who put
Jews to sea in unseaworthy boats for profit is not too far above the Nazis. Providing a service for a profit is not in itself immoral. What is immoral is making profits from exploiting others' weakness and providing a service that runs a high risk of horrible death.

The world is a complicated place, and when we know the precise facts - as far as they will ever be known - we may make a judgement about Mr Kurdi. People smuggling in boats likely to capsize, however, seems to me a vile trade. We should not make too many excuses for those who engage in it.

The "stop moralising" thing is just a word that we get used to on the right, though the moralising is at least as thick (and I'd say usually thicker) on the other side. I did not take offence, just wanted to point that out. Cheers.

[David]