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| How many Syrian refugees should Australia take? |
| None |
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52% |
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| A few hundred |
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2% |
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| A few thousand |
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5% |
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| Over ten thousand |
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5% |
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| As many as possible |
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35% |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | Wokko wrote: |
It's only you spouting that <snip>, most sentient individuals can see the damage that Islam does to Western culture (see France, UK, Germany). They've only been trying to conquer Europe for 1000 years or so, and it's you and your ilk who are just handing it over. |
Well done on your calm reply.
You know you see so much of this on social media, the worry (fear?) that Islam is purposely being infiltrated into communities until they become the majority. And yet the evidence is there to support it, so you have to wonder. |
You're mixing with a deeply unpleasant crowd if that seems anything like a mainstream opinion, TP. But let's unpack this silly conspiracy theory: are you saying that Western governments are letting people in who are pretending not to be Muslim? Or are you saying that our governments are in on the conspiracy? Because it seems to me that our government and those of Europe know more or less exactly how many Muslims are coming into their countries and don't seem overly concerned about it. And why would they, when the percentage of Muslims living in those countries is in single figures (here, about 2%, the bulk of whom are presumably happy to live in a pluralist democracy).
I'm far more worried about the infiltration of neo-nazis and apocalyptic Christians into critical discussion of Islam's place in Western society. If those views are gaining mainstream credibility, then we're in deep trouble.
I suggest you read up on the anti-Jewish conspiracy theories related to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and the role that they played in the rise of Hitler. This is pretty much the same stuff all over again.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion
Oh, and by the way, a refugee who has the resources and luck to travel from one continent to another and apply for asylum is still a real refugee. Let's see how much of an 'opportunist' you'd be in their shoes.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ i guess the real question here is a very practical one ; What disturbs most of us, I think, is (1) any significant level of Islamisation of our society ; and (2) the risk of Islamic terrorism from the small minority of Muslims who are disposed to commit it, and the far larger minority who justify it (eg the 25% of British Muslims who said they "sympathised" with the Charlie Hebdo killings, and the 10% who said directly that CH "deserved it"). You can look at the 25% as a glass three-quarters full, but if 25% of our community sympathised with murder on comparable grounds, i think we'd recognise that something was fundamentally broken.
In the former case, i think the matter of how societies are changed by Islamic immigration needs study, before we commit to significantly more of it. On the second point, I would need to see an absence of Islamic terror over an extended period before I'd be prepared to open new avenues to significant Islamic immigration. Until Islam is thoroughly cleansed of terrorism as a political strategy, I am afraid i prefer such tough realism to political violence in our societies. |
100% my point of view, and said so well.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ i guess the real question here is a very practical one ; What disturbs most of us, I think, is (1) any significant level of Islamisation of our society ; and (2) the risk of Islamic terrorism from the small minority of Muslims who are disposed to commit it, and the far larger minority who justify it (eg the 25% of British Muslims who said they "sympathised" with the Charlie Hebdo killings, and the 10% who said directly that CH "deserved it"). You can look at the 25% as a glass three-quarters full, but if 25% of our community sympathised with murder on comparable grounds, i think we'd recognise that something was fundamentally broken.
In the former case, i think the matter of how societies are changed by Islamic immigration needs study, before we commit to significantly more of it. On the second point, I would need to see an absence of Islamic terror over an extended period before I'd be prepared to open new avenues to significant Islamic immigration. Until Islam is thoroughly cleansed of terrorism as a political strategy, I am afraid i prefer such tough realism to political violence in our societies. |
100% my point of view, and said so well. |
Thanks, I never argue with a lady with a gun !
There is Guardian article, btw, which projects the percentage of the muslim ppulation in Europe and other places by 2030. From memory, most of Europe will rise from ca 5% Muslim to ca 10% by that date, and Australia from about 2% To 5%. I don't know what assumptions are made about rates of immigration in that study, however. Whetehr 10% is a lot depends on how you see it. I have reservations about an Islamic party holding the balance of power, for instance, but it's clearly not a "takeover" number in absolute terms. Projected to 2050 and I guess it doubles again.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Try putting that in a more specific context. Can you explain your reasoning? |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| HAL wrote: | | Try putting that in a more specific context. Can you explain your reasoning? |
0100010 11001010 111010001 0100010110 Off, Hal
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Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Are you asking about my reasoning ? |
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The Prototype 
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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I saw this just pop into my newsfeed on Facebook, I am not sure if this applies to the current discussion thought it was interesting anyway.
| Quote: | (TheAntiMedia) Propaganda is the wheel by which the government steers the bus of a nation; typically driving it into war or off the cliff of humanity. It is amazing to see how many people who are otherwise rational human beings will blindly follow the herd on the matter of how subhuman a perceived national enemy is. Image credit: braveandboldthinking
The western media wonderfully paints Islam as a death cult bent on world domination. Over and over again the American populace is shown footage of the atrocities committed by fanatics or of Arab men burning American flags. The problem, of course, is that this isn’t remotely representative of the Islamic population of the world. Are there Muslims who employ terrorism? Of course. Are there Christians who employ terrorism? Of course. There are even Buddhists who employ terrorism.
Some general facts about Islam might help break the noose of wartime propaganda that rests around America’s neck. Below are a list of statements this journalist has seen in the last week on social media, followed by the data to put that statement in perspective.
“All [or most] Muslims are terrorists.” |
Full Article: http://theantimedia.org/propaganda-and-islam-what-youre-not-being-told/
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Ðavâgé
https://www.facebook.com/davehardingphotography
https://www.facebook.com/Davage |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ proto, there's propaganda in that as well, though. While terrorism is indeed clearly used by all kinds of political groups her and there, the great majority of terrorism around the world today seems to be Islamist in inspiration.
Secondly, it is not true to say that the "western media wonderfully paints Islam as a death cult". IS is painted as a death cult, because that is plainly what it is. So is Al Qaeda. But actually the great majority of Western media is full of acknowledgement that islam is not identical with terrorism ; and i cannot think of one instance where any mainstream western media outlet has described Islam itself as a death cult. After each act of terrorism in the West, our politicians are (rightly) at pains to say that ordinary Muslims do not support terrorism.
So I think the article is pretending to be anti-propaganda while having a lot of the ways of propaganda itself.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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The Prototype
Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| The Prototype wrote: | Yeah I just found it very interesting reading that, and thought perhaps it pertained a bit to the discussion here and would be interesting for the people to discuss here.
I posted it more for the fact that it was interesting. |
Fair enough, mate. You take care, I hope you're doing well and the photography game is working out for you.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ I'm really glad we are taking people from the camps - hopefully they will have a peaceful happy life in Australia - not withstanding that they will surely miss their country ( before it was destroyed by war) and their family and friends left behind!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.†|
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: |
stupid humans fighting over what? |
The usual crapola, TP - control of unearned resources, the right to impose false certainties on others, and the simple rage that comes with disorder. The ME is awash with all three of these diseases. We all bang on about GDP and economics, etc, but a state of civil peace is the prosperity that we all leave uncounted.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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Dateline on SBS 2130hrs tonight is in Germany looking at the fate of 2 Syrian refugees who arrived in Italy by boat.
Might be worth a look - mind you I heard the journo talking on 774 and it seems Australia (along with Hungary) have become the poster countries for the German far right and Neo nazi mob 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.†|
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | Sure!
(I hope people won't mind, but I think this is relevant to the thread at hand, because our understanding and capacity for empathy play a large role in how we deal with issues like accepting refugees, so these recommendations are for everyone.)
Wadjda: A Saudi film about a 10 year old girl who wants to ride a bicycle. Probably one of the more accessible films here, I think you'd love it TP. |
Good stuff, David. I bought Wadjda and The Wind will Carry us on
Amazon. The White Ballon is out of stock, unfortunately. Will take a look next weekend ! Thanks |
For the record, I watched Wadjda this weekend, David. A good film, which expressed what you said it did - a perspective on what it is like to be in such a society, as far as we can even begin to apprehend it. It made me even more depressed about Wahhabism, if that is possible. Let's hope there are plucky girls like Wadjda, and even more importantly, boys in that society who see that it needs to change, in ways that can be made to fit with its own traditions
As an aside, I always wonder about the effect of landscape on a people and their beliefs. That film reminded me that a ceaselessly powder-beige and baked-white environment, surrounded by the hostile desert must have some ascetic effect on a people.
The other film I bought, The Wind Will Carry Us, has not arrived. I need to poke Amazon ! I suspect I'll have rather more affinity with Iranian culture than I do with Saudi. Thanks for the recommendation. I enjoyed it And my 15 year old daughter, who watched it with us, is still spitting in awakened incredulity at the condition of women in Saudi Arabia !
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Two more flags before I die! |
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