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| How many Syrian refugees should Australia take? |
| None |
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52% |
[ 21 ] |
| A few hundred |
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2% |
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| A few thousand |
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5% |
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| Over ten thousand |
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5% |
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| As many as possible |
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35% |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | Sweden? This is the country that charged Julian Assange with rape for (allegedly) not using a condom. 
More seriously, high reportage doesn't necessarily correspond to high incidence. Paradoxically, it can be a sign of a country getting more progressive and actually prosecuting rapes. |
Really? Apart from a blind hope how do you make that conclusion?
| Quote: | And these numbers are only the tip of the ice berg. According to the authorities, Sweden’s real rape statistics are 400-900% higher than official numbers. The BRĹ website states:
“As few as 10-20 percent of all sexual offences are reported to the police. The Swedish Crime Survey (Nationella trygghetsundersökningen, NTU) provides a better picture of the extent of criminality, with data on both victims as well as perpetrators — which is lacking in the criminal statistics. Of those who are suspected for sexual offences, the majority are men and only about two percent are women. A majority of the victims are women. In a third of reported rapes, the victim is younger than 15.” |
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=de1_1394099792 |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | Violent gang behaviour like gang rape is not a Muslim phenomenon. It is and always has been a function of poverty and marginalisation, more than anything else. It can be a by-product of taking people in from war zones, yes; but to paint it as being part of some Muslim invasion is dishonest and deeply xenophobic. |
its certainly not confined to Muslims thats ridiculous! its more about power, follow the leader, bullying and what can i get away with.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Wow it sounds really interesting, MR Impatient it's been 3 working days and there's 3 days til christmas. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | Violent gang behaviour like gang rape is not a Muslim phenomenon. It is and always has been a function of poverty and marginalisation, more than anything else. It can be a by-product of taking people in from war zones, yes; but to paint it as being part of some Muslim invasion is dishonest and deeply xenophobic. |
its certainly not confined to Muslims thats ridiculous! its more about power, follow the leader, bullying and what can i get away with. |
In the end, that's a question for study. Given the general attitude to women in Muslim societies (and the seeming fear and hatred of overt female sexuality) it would not surprise me if there was some higher propensity for young Muslim men to commit offences of this kind, in response to the "temptation" of western dress and general freedom. But it could well be a false hypothesis, when examined rigorously. And of course some men of all stripes may be misogynistic enough to commit such offences.
The more relevant issue is that numerous young, displaced, marginalised and disordered men from war zones will - we suspect - commit a higher rate of sexual offences than settled, secure people in their own indigenous communities. That then raises the question of whether democratically elected politicians should inflict that risk on the women of their communities without due consultation and careful parliamentary debate. I don't believe they should.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^ 👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👋👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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What's Anita colbys rapists, killers excuse?
How about a pack raping bunch of footy players?
I do agree though, and it's the reason those head scarfs shit me, it's such a degrading religion towards woman, bloody disgusting.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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To my knowledge, postcolonial literature from countries such as India discusses gender interaction issues in the context of situations where traditional culture meets radically new values.
I am not referring to the loony right reports here, which are a waste of everyone's precious intellectual energies, but to the fact that the sociological dynamics of such cultural interactions are major themes explored in postmodern disciplines such as postcolonial literature and feminism.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| To You seem very intelligent to me. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| HAL wrote: | | To You seem very intelligent to me. |
OMG Hal  
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Two more flags before I die! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oops. Too much data. |
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David
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| think positive wrote: | | I do agree though, and it's the reason those head scarfs shit me, it's such a degrading religion towards woman, bloody disgusting. |
It most certainly is in some ways, and could arguably be described as such in other, more debatable respects with, say, headscarves. But you also need to remember that what you or I consider ideal in our society may be radically different in others. The fact is, many women do live happy and fulfilling lives in Muslim societies, and many may look at our ways, with rampant casual sex, women's bodies plastered over billboards, older women chucked into nursing homes instead of being cared for by their families, high rates of marital breakdown, less institutionalised support for stay-at-home mothers and so on, and think that they're lucky. And our societies are of course far from liberated from the scourges of rape, sexual harassment and domestic violence.
I don't say any of that to minimise the very real discrimination, powerlessness and violence experienced by many women in theocratic Muslim (and other traditional religious) societies. But I do think that we westerners can be a little one-eyed when it comes to noticing barbarism and injustice in other countries. And it's deeply ironic that this supposed concern for the rights of women feeds into a general fear and prejudice, of which Muslim women - with their headscarves or niqabs - become disproportionate victims here. Sometimes there's more than a speck in our own eye to take care of.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: |
The fact is, many women do live happy and fulfilling lives in Muslim societies, and many may look at our ways, with rampant casual sex, women's bodies plastered over billboards, older women chucked into nursing homes instead of being cared for by their families, high rates of marital breakdown, less institutionalised support for stay-at-home mothers and so on, and think that they're lucky. And our societies are of course far from liberated from the scourges of rape, sexual harassment and domestic violence.
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It's a very valid point, David, and you make it well ; but many women in the West led "happy and fulfilling lives" in the Fifties before modern feminism. That did not justify the pre-feminist era's attitudes to women. And most of the phenomena you describe - "casual sex, women's bodies plastered over billboards ... high rates of marital breakdown, less institutionalised support for stay-at-home mothers and so on" were things that arose largely as a result of feminism and women being free to choose. I don't think that you can logically wish for a liberal society and equal rights for women, and at the same time imply opposition to the (mostly) inevitable consequences.
All of that is not to say that Islamic codes of gender relations are objectively wrong in Muslim societies. That way lies the colonial past and few of us would want to revisit that. Culture is relative, and a source of great comfort and joy to those raised within it - and many women in Muslim societies are indeed probably happy with their status. The trouble is that they are not free, in most Islamic societies, to reject the highly restrictive cultural norms should they wish to. Why the Left, with such a proud record of feminism and secularism, should provide apologetics for gender repression on behalf of a desert religion from the 6th century, will always baffle me.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Why the Left, with such a proud record of feminism and secularism, should provide apologetics for gender repression on behalf of a desert religion from the 6th century, will always baffle me. |
I don't know about the Left, but the complexities of culture as a phenomenon have possibly been explained to you 1,367 times. Why haven't you done any study on it or asked further questions since it was last explained to you?
Just which aspect of the well-known parameters of the human cognitive-emotional-behavioural nexus which gives rise to human cultural variation baffles you?
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | I do agree though, and it's the reason those head scarfs shit me, it's such a degrading religion towards woman, bloody disgusting. |
It most certainly is in some ways, and could arguably be described as such in other, more debatable respects with, say, headscarves. But you also need to remember that what you or I consider ideal in our society may be radically different in others. The fact is, many women do live happy and fulfilling lives in Muslim societies, and many may look at our ways, with rampant casual sex, women's bodies plastered over billboards, older women chucked into nursing homes instead of being cared for by their families, high rates of marital breakdown, less institutionalised support for stay-at-home mothers and so on, and think that they're lucky. And our societies are of course far from liberated from the scourges of rape, sexual harassment and domestic violence.
I don't say any of that to minimise the very real discrimination, powerlessness and violence experienced by many women in theocratic Muslim (and other traditional religious) societies. But I do think that we westerners can be a little one-eyed when it comes to noticing barbarism and injustice in other countries. And it's deeply ironic that this supposed concern for the rights of women feeds into a general fear and prejudice, of which Muslim women - with their headscarves or niqabs - become disproportionate victims here. Sometimes there's more than a speck in our own eye to take care of. |
True but generally, we don't put to death women and young girls who have been raped, and therefore brought shame on their families! Or order women to be raped for crimes, or stone them to death. It's a very barbaric way to live, and I think we westerners left most of that behind when we stopped burning witches at the stake. (Though I know a couple of witches it might do some good for!)
I'd have made a great 50s woman, those dresses were awesome, you were allowed to have boobs and arse!
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | Why the Left, with such a proud record of feminism and secularism, should provide apologetics for gender repression on behalf of a desert religion from the 6th century, will always baffle me. |
I don't know about the Left, but the complexities of culture as a phenomenon have possibly been explained to you 1,367 times. Why haven't you done any study on it or asked further questions since it was last explained to you?
Just which aspect of the well-known parameters of the human cognitive-emotional-behavioural nexus which gives rise to human cultural variation baffles you? |
However hard, do try not to be patronising, PTID. One could swallow a library of books explaining the obvious fact that human beings are designed to love the culture in which they're raised It does not explain why people who believe in gender equality, the rights of the individual and humanism should be so assiduously making apologetics for an unreformed 6th century warlord religion that is largely associated with the opposite.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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