Sack Buckley
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thompsoc
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| think positive wrote: | | Buts it's called "foot" ball |
Sure it is not foooozze ball?
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we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| think positive wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | yin-YANG wrote: | | qldmagpie67 wrote: | I've long be in th sunshine and lollipop brigade and defended Bucks relentlessly but afte last night I'm really concerned for th first time.
Look I can handle losing while we are playing youngsters and getting games into them. After the Hawks, Freo, Port run I was very bullish about where we are headed. Yes we've lost 5 games by less than 2 goals win 3 of those and were 6/7th.
But we didn't win them and our form has dropped off markedly.
Don't be confused folks the Swans aren't that good they will make the 8 and be bundled out very quickly. They are imposters
Now the coach can't kick goals for the team and he certainly can't help them on the field making stupid decisions under pressure.
But he can change the theme of how we play.
Try man on man for a change
Why do we constantly pick players who are obviously cooked in regards to confidence (Toovey)
How can players come to the club who are better than average kicks anda turn them into duds ? (Varcoe)
3yrs ago Sidey was a elite kick in the game hitting targets lace out from 30/40m now he can't kick it 10m accurately.
9 times last night he kicked it and it was called play on didn't travel 15m FFS
Has his skill been coached out of him ?
How many goals have we missed from set shots this year from inside 30m ?
I don't think I would be stretching the truth to say it would be over 100 (roughly 5 a game)
Last night they had 800 more games experience fair enough but how many times did players on the outside handballs back into the contest to a team mate under the pump and turn it over ?
Where are our outside runners ?
How many times do you see our players (2&3 at times) rush to the same content leaving there man free who gets the ball and hurts us ?
This is coached it's call manic pressure but surely at some time it's better to just hold your ground and man and make them execute there skills to beat you.
When was the last time we played man on man when the momentum is against us ?
When was the last time we made tactical moves during a game that come up trumps ?
Bucks isn't the sole blame but he is the head coach.
I believe Harvey is a complete dud. Pack him up send him back to st vomit marked inept coaching ability
Throw the kitchen sink at Bolton (that's if Adelaide Carlton don't sign him which they most likely will) or some who can actually bring in some experience from another club who have a sound team structure.
I don't want Bucks sacked I want him to succeed.
But if this same mess continues in 2016 then he has to go
I said a million years ago (ok maybe a bit of a stretch there)
His greatest strength as a player could be his biggest weakness as a coach
And that's his single minded determination to follow his process no matter what
We have talent
We have a great group of mid range (30-70 games) just about to enter there best period.
We have a solid and improving back line
We have (on paper) and very very good forward line (Cloke Reid Moore Elliott, Fasalo White DeGoey etc)
What we need now is the coaching to bring it all together.
He has about 12 games next year to show he's the man |
Sorry but most would agree Varcoe is having his best year at the Pies… he has brought a new dimension to his game and his kicking is very good.
The Pies are only a little bit of poise and confidence away from beating the best teams in the comp.
Some straight kicking for goals would have seen us beat the swans and then what? Bux is a genuius!
This young group has some real stars coming through - love the work of Marhs and Moore turning a poor start around. The rarity is for various reasons Reid and Cloke were a little off and Moor is still very raw, however those big guys with Elliot and Faz around will be potent forward line - and of course the skills and speed of Varcoe will add some x-factor.
Bux will keep his position when the Pies are in the finals mix next year. if not he will go - but he will be staying for the long haul! |
The goal-kicking efficiency cost that game - it was probably lost in the third quarter, when the team dominated (that was a 10-goal quarter everywhere, except on the score-board) and, as with a couple of the other close losses to good teams, goal-kicking errors - and the continuing inability to kick bags of goals in extended periods of dominance - were costly. |
The voice of reason.
Who's fault is it, how do we fix it?
This has been a problem for too many years, and it's ironic in a game called "football" that our skills are so bad. I just don't see enough improvement to tell me we are even trying to fix it. Can anyone really say , gee ________ has really improved his kicking? |
I think there are two fundamental issues - some poor ball users in defence and some people who don't take chances they should in front of goals.
I am always frustrated by Marley Williams - although he kicked a fine goal last night, he repeatedly turns the ball over coming out of defence: frequently, it seems like it's happened because he's under pressure but I think much of the pressure is created by the way he so heavily and predictably favours his left side. Last night, I was also disappointed by Sinclair - he again looked to me like he is not big enough or strong enough to play in the backline and some of his kicking was very poor. Toovey we know about and he isn't going to change, now - my view on Tooves is that if his loss of pace is permanent, he will retire and if it isn't, there's no reason why he can't do the brilliant lock down job on the opposition's most damaging creative player.
(As an aside, some of the midfielders are just poor kicks. Some of them just have to do too much. Almost all of them are too slow, so that even if they are good kicks they can't for the most part get out to do the damage you'd wish. The problem was made worse last night because Pendles hit virtually no target by hand or by foot for the first three quarters, so that Swan and Sidebottom spent most of the night trying to create scoring chances out of nothing.)
Up forward - well the KPFs had the double whammy: Cloke wasn't right to run out the full game and Reid had second-game back syndrome. Moore will, I think, be a fine player in the future but he's not, yet. But, more importantly, forwards responsible for kicking goals didn't hit the scoreboard effectively, at all. Fas couldn't hit the side of a barn, Elliott went at 25% scoring efficiency and Moore at 33%. Thus, our 10-goal third quarter became a 4.7 quarter and, instead of going in with a comfortable break, we had a 5-point lead.
I will be going to the VFL again today and hoping to see Karnezis take his chances for goal because that's what I think Collingwood really lacks up forward, at the moment - that player who only gets a few kicks at goal but puts all of them, or nearly all of them, through. We have expected Fasolo to do that and have been used to Elliott doing that - when those players have the yips, there's not a lot of other sharp-shooting to make up the deficit. But, looking at the result, if three of our easy misses were taken, the game is won.
Personally, I think it's just a matter of degree and that a lot of it is because we're watching a team still in development mode. It's very frustrating watching the team, week after week, failing to kill off the opposition because it can't take its chances (and a lot of it I actually can't bear to watch) but I think, in terms of structure, the team actually looks and performs way better this year than last. This hasn't been a Fitzroy-style run of losses by a non-competitive rabble - it's been a run of losses that but for a little finishing class would have been 4 wins, 4 losses (perhaps better). It's not "honourable", I don't like it, I'm not comfortable with it and the list of Collingwood players who annoy me is even higher than it was when Fraser and Davis were playing together but I can see where it's heading. As I've said elsewhere, I think Buckley is the right person for the present task and I continue to reserve judgement about whether he can do the next part. |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| Grab Clarko and then we can talk about sacking Buckley. |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| thompsoc wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Then we are £$%$ed |
No, we need to recruit better kickers and we need to improve our game plan to at least modify this aspect of our game. |
Pendlebury, Elliott and Fasolo are good kicks and they missed some easy shots. |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | yin-YANG wrote: | | qldmagpie67 wrote: | I've long be in th sunshine and lollipop brigade and defended Bucks relentlessly but afte last night I'm really concerned for th first time.
Look I can handle losing while we are playing youngsters and getting games into them. After the Hawks, Freo, Port run I was very bullish about where we are headed. Yes we've lost 5 games by less than 2 goals win 3 of those and were 6/7th.
But we didn't win them and our form has dropped off markedly.
Don't be confused folks the Swans aren't that good they will make the 8 and be bundled out very quickly. They are imposters
Now the coach can't kick goals for the team and he certainly can't help them on the field making stupid decisions under pressure.
But he can change the theme of how we play.
Try man on man for a change
Why do we constantly pick players who are obviously cooked in regards to confidence (Toovey)
How can players come to the club who are better than average kicks anda turn them into duds ? (Varcoe)
3yrs ago Sidey was a elite kick in the game hitting targets lace out from 30/40m now he can't kick it 10m accurately.
9 times last night he kicked it and it was called play on didn't travel 15m FFS
Has his skill been coached out of him ?
How many goals have we missed from set shots this year from inside 30m ?
I don't think I would be stretching the truth to say it would be over 100 (roughly 5 a game)
Last night they had 800 more games experience fair enough but how many times did players on the outside handballs back into the contest to a team mate under the pump and turn it over ?
Where are our outside runners ?
How many times do you see our players (2&3 at times) rush to the same content leaving there man free who gets the ball and hurts us ?
This is coached it's call manic pressure but surely at some time it's better to just hold your ground and man and make them execute there skills to beat you.
When was the last time we played man on man when the momentum is against us ?
When was the last time we made tactical moves during a game that come up trumps ?
Bucks isn't the sole blame but he is the head coach.
I believe Harvey is a complete dud. Pack him up send him back to st vomit marked inept coaching ability
Throw the kitchen sink at Bolton (that's if Adelaide Carlton don't sign him which they most likely will) or some who can actually bring in some experience from another club who have a sound team structure.
I don't want Bucks sacked I want him to succeed.
But if this same mess continues in 2016 then he has to go
I said a million years ago (ok maybe a bit of a stretch there)
His greatest strength as a player could be his biggest weakness as a coach
And that's his single minded determination to follow his process no matter what
We have talent
We have a great group of mid range (30-70 games) just about to enter there best period.
We have a solid and improving back line
We have (on paper) and very very good forward line (Cloke Reid Moore Elliott, Fasalo White DeGoey etc)
What we need now is the coaching to bring it all together.
He has about 12 games next year to show he's the man |
Sorry but most would agree Varcoe is having his best year at the Pies… he has brought a new dimension to his game and his kicking is very good.
The Pies are only a little bit of poise and confidence away from beating the best teams in the comp.
Some straight kicking for goals would have seen us beat the swans and then what? Bux is a genuius!
This young group has some real stars coming through - love the work of Marhs and Moore turning a poor start around. The rarity is for various reasons Reid and Cloke were a little off and Moor is still very raw, however those big guys with Elliot and Faz around will be potent forward line - and of course the skills and speed of Varcoe will add some x-factor.
Bux will keep his position when the Pies are in the finals mix next year. if not he will go - but he will be staying for the long haul! |
The goal-kicking efficiency cost that game - it was probably lost in the third quarter, when the team dominated (that was a 10-goal quarter everywhere, except on the score-board) and, as with a couple of the other close losses to good teams, goal-kicking errors - and the continuing inability to kick bags of goals in extended periods of dominance - were costly. |
The voice of reason.
Who's fault is it, how do we fix it?
This has been a problem for too many years, and it's ironic in a game called "football" that our skills are so bad. I just don't see enough improvement to tell me we are even trying to fix it. Can anyone really say , gee ________ has really improved his kicking? |
I think there are two fundamental issues - some poor ball users in defence and some people who don't take chances they should in front of goals.
I am always frustrated by Marley Williams - although he kicked a fine goal last night, he repeatedly turns the ball over coming out of defence: frequently, it seems like it's happened because he's under pressure but I think much of the pressure is created by the way he so heavily and predictably favours his left side. Last night, I was also disappointed by Sinclair - he again looked to me like he is not big enough or strong enough to play in the backline and some of his kicking was very poor. Toovey we know about and he isn't going to change, now - my view on Tooves is that if his loss of pace is permanent, he will retire and if it isn't, there's no reason why he can't do the brilliant lock down job on the opposition's most damaging creative player.
(As an aside, some of the midfielders are just poor kicks. Some of them just have to do too much. Almost all of them are too slow, so that even if they are good kicks they can't for the most part get out to do the damage you'd wish. The problem was made worse last night because Pendles hit virtually no target by hand or by foot for the first three quarters, so that Swan and Sidebottom spent most of the night trying to create scoring chances out of nothing.)
Up forward - well the KPFs had the double whammy: Cloke wasn't right to run out the full game and Reid had second-game back syndrome. Moore will, I think, be a fine player in the future but he's not, yet. But, more importantly, forwards responsible for kicking goals didn't hit the scoreboard effectively, at all. Fas couldn't hit the side of a barn, Elliott went at 25% scoring efficiency and Moore at 33%. Thus, our 10-goal third quarter became a 4.7 quarter and, instead of going in with a comfortable break, we had a 5-point lead.
I will be going to the VFL again today and hoping to see Karnezis take his chances for goal because that's what I think Collingwood really lacks up forward, at the moment - that player who only gets a few kicks at goal but puts all of them, or nearly all of them, through. We have expected Fasolo to do that and have been used to Elliott doing that - when those players have the yips, there's not a lot of other sharp-shooting to make up the deficit. But, looking at the result, if three of our easy misses were taken, the game is won.
Personally, I think it's just a matter of degree and that a lot of it is because we're watching a team still in development mode. It's very frustrating watching the team, week after week, failing to kill off the opposition because it can't take its chances (and a lot of it I actually can't bear to watch) but I think, in terms of structure, the team actually looks and performs way better this year than last. This hasn't been a Fitzroy-style run of losses by a non-competitive rabble - it's been a run of losses that but for a little finishing class would have been 4 wins, 4 losses (perhaps better). It's not "honourable", I don't like it, I'm not comfortable with it and the list of Collingwood players who annoy me is even higher than it was when Fraser and Davis were playing together but I can see where it's heading. As I've said elsewhere, I think Buckley is the right person for the present task and I continue to reserve judgement about whether he can do the next part. |
Yin yang, thinkster P4S you all make valid points.
Youth can be blamed for some of the errors undoubtedly. But it's more than just youth. Pendles had a shocker last night (by his lofty standards) Swans disposal is iffy at best now even though he is getting leather poisoning recently.
Marley makes me cringe at times then scream in joy at others.
My point is I don't want Bucks sacked but I want our skills to imporove/develop which I don't think they have the past 4 seasons.
Bucks was one of the greatest modern day footballers could use either foot or hand equally efficiently. Surely he could show/coach the players at least how to kick the dang thing 30m forward without it going 45m up first giving the opponents time to run and spoil/intercept.
Frustration is at a high level for me because I believe if we don't get this right and quick we are going to miss the boat with the talent we have on our list.
There are always going to be turnovers and every team has players who are poor kicks our problems is we have more poor kicks than good kicks and have more costly turnovers than our pressure created in our favour.
I would be spending the whole off season with the players shooting for goal and kicking the ball back and forth until they can hit the target or goal with there eyes closed.
Our window starts opening next season and I see it as a 3-5yr window hopefully we can extend it by a few more with good trading and drafting (like the Hawks)
5yrs Pendles will be on his way out, Swan will be gone, Cloke will be at the end and we will have about 15/20 players at around 150/200 games and in there prime.
We have drafted well, we have traded well we have a decent backline and 2 very good swing men in Reid and Moore, we have good forwards and a up and coming midfield, we have big rucks wouldn't mind some more elite speed (hopefully freeman becomes this) so we have nearly every box ticked except kicking which is the fundamental skill all players should have.
I wasn't meaning Varcoe was a bad kick but even he now his kicking is off the pace.
I'll pose this question
Is our game style of manic pressure and chasing and harassing taking to much energy from the players to allow them to be poised when kicking ? |
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thompsoc
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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Not a bad analysis by Pie4shaw.
But I don't think our recruiting has gone that well.
Afterall, we had 9 first round draft picks from the last
3 years ( including Adams and Varcoe )
And things aren't looking that bright.
Agree about Karnsis at least he can kick goals.
Give him the last 3 weeks. If he is no good get rid of him.
But at least try him.
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we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| ^^^ I do my best to be balanced, thompsoc, as I think you know. There's always room for fair criticism but I think it does sometimes get swamped by all the reaction-based criticism that follows losses (and, just to be clear, that comment is not directed at you). That's why I try to start "big picture" threads after wins (the trolls usually aren't out to play). |
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thompsoc
Joined: 21 Sep 2009
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^^^ I do my best to be balanced, thompsoc, as I think you know. There's always room for fair criticism but I think it does sometimes get swamped by all the reaction-based criticism that follows losses (and, just to be clear, that comment is not directed at you). That's why I try to start "big picture" threads after wins (the trolls usually aren't out to play). |
I thought it was a well written and balanced post that you wrote.
Well said.
_________________
we don't eat our own at collingwood we just allow them to foul our nest. |
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Doc63
Joined: 06 May 2004
Location: Newport
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Well, he wont be getting the flick any time soon, certainly not this year.
However, we will have a similar draw next season, so, if we are not at least 8-3 at the half way mark again, he'll be under all sorts of pressure.
His contact should not be renewed until we have locked in a finals spot. If we fail to make the finals again, he has to go.
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I hold a cup of wisdom, but there is nothing within. |
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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It's going to make me feel sick when all the 'sack Buckley' brigade are posting their 'Well I was wrong, but I've never been happier to be wrong' posts in a year or two.
No one here would have the faintest clue as to whether the guy can coach or not (self-ascribed tactical genius notwithstanding).
I'm sure that the time you coached the under-twelves into third spot or filled in at auskick has you well armed for judging a professional coach, but forgive me for not being swayed by your expertise.
The thing is, people who know far better and far more than you do think he's the right guy for the job.
I choose to put my faith in them and, you know, support the club. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ well said, redlight. I'm confident Nathan Buckley knows more about football than anyone posting here. There are reasons for us travelling as we are, and reasons to believe we'll improve. If we were coached by someone with the record of James Hird or Michael Voss, I'd be worried. Instead, I see a team that has been rebuilt, is improved year or year in most core areas, and which is about 2 goals behind the sides in the top 4.
Many of the sad brigade were the same ones that demanded Malthouse go in 2008 and 2009.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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piedys 
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
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| Redlight wrote: | It's going to make me feel sick when all the 'sack Buckley' brigade are posting their 'Well I was wrong, but I've never been happier to be wrong' posts in a year or two.
No one here would have the faintest clue as to whether the guy can coach or not (self-ascribed tactical genius notwithstanding).
The thing is, people who know far better and far more than you do think he's the right guy for the job.
I choose to put my faith in them and, you know, support the club. |
Reddy, that's all good and well to fly the flag over his continued appointment by Eddie, but he like the players, will need to show improvement in 2016.
Watching him slam the phone in the coaches box game after game doesn't exactly tell us he is learning how to counteract the oppositions game plans, case in point being watching the Swans sling-shot the ball from our half forward line ad nauseum last night.
You would have to worry if that scenario repeated itself in the corresponding game in 2016?
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M I L L A N E 4 2 forever |
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What'sinaname 
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ well said, redlight. I'm confident Nathan Buckley knows more about football than anyone posting here. There are reasons for us travelling as we are, and reasons to believe we'll improve. If we were coached by someone with the record of James Hird or Michael Voss, I'd be worried. Instead, I see a team that has been rebuilt, is improved year or year in most core areas, and which is about 2 goals behind the sides in the top 4.
Many of the sad brigade were the same ones that demanded Malthouse go in 2008 and 2009. |
Redlight would say the same if Hird was our coach too. |
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swooper_101
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Location: Victoria
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Just fix the skills and everything else will fall in to place. Stop getting athletes, and start getting footballers.
I am starting to stop watching games now, because I can't stand the poor kicking or missed tackles more then anything else. We have to keep bloody handballing because the players don't trust them selves to kick 15 meters. Sigh.
P.S I know saying "just fix the skills" is a lot more easier said then done, but it is the truth. Still feel like Bucks is the man for the job.
Last edited by swooper_101 on Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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swooper_101
Joined: 23 Nov 2002
Location: Victoria
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| Double post. |
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