Sack Buckley
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^^^ Some of us, of course, are capable of keeping an open mind about such things and only feel the need to comment on obvious garbage, spouted by either side of the debate. If you think there's some reason why Lyon should be judged the same way as Buckley, given Lyon's record, feel free to try to explain what that reason is. |
I'm not a Lyon fan. Think he takes a list and runs it into the ground. While that ultimately might (hasn't yet) achieve the ultimate success, it eventually leaves you with a club in need of a major overhaul. Be interesting to see how he goes lifting Freo up off the mat. Ironically, our list is now well placed for a coach like Lyon but not sure he can take it forward any better than Bucks. |
The word irony is bandied about all too often these days, but..... |
Thought the same thing! |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | People keep harping on about 2010 as if it's relevant to today's team.
At nearly 25 ave age that team had a young Beams, Sidebootom, Reid, Blair, McCaffer, Brown, Thomas. Pendles was 6yrs younger as too was Swanny
We also had a strong core of experienced players of more than 150 games who were able to assist the younger players.
Now we have Cloke who's out of form and playing seconds, Swanny who's injured, Brown out injured, Pendles playing busted, Varcoe been out as much as in this year & Sidebottom who missed 2 games suspended.
We don't have that experienced core anymore
You can say we got rid of them to early or whatever but it still won't change the fact we are very young across all lines and lack experience and leadership.
Injuries are a different topic
Anyone who is being fair has to admit injuries have played a part in our poor season. That isn't a excuse it's a fact.
Would this side be better if Cloke was in form, Swanny wasn't injured, Brown wasn't injured, Scharenberg wasn't injured, Williams wasn't injured, Ramsay wasn't injured, Elliott wasn't injured Langdon wasn't injured, Gault wasn't injured, Broomhead wasn't injured the list just goes on and every week it's added to.
Have had no cohesion. We've used 36 players
Some stats raised by King on 360 last night
The last 6 grand finals have been contests between team who have used on average 32 players over the course of the season (includes Freo resting episode) a couple teams in that era used 29/30 players the entire year.
People need to be fair and reasonable in there assessments.
I'm still not sure he's the best bloke to coach is going forward but at the moment he's our coach and should have our support |
So let's talk facts about injuries and stats about players used over the period of the past 4 Collingwood coaches:
Year PU W L D
1995 37 8 12 2
1996 35 9 13
1997 35 10 12
1998 38 7 15
1999 39 4 18
2000 37 7 15
2001 34 11 11
2002 32 13 9
2003 31 15 7
2004 37 8 14
2005 39 5 17
2006 36 14 8
2007 38 13 9
2008 37 12 10
2009 37 15 7
2010 33 17 5
2011 33 20 2
2012 37 16 6
2013 40 14 8
2014 36 11 11
2015 36 10 12
2016 36 3 5
It ain't about getting to grand finals every year. That's impossible. It's about getting the best outta what is on the park. Matthews didn't get much sympathy for injuries in 95. Shaw never got "a chance" to wait till he only used 30 players in a year to prove he could coach.
And Malthouse. Well let's just say from 2006 to 2009 squeezed the juice out of a lemon every year. As for the 2005 year, well we tanked for the second half of the year which explains the drop in wins. |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | JC, until Buckley coaches a team to a Grand Final, we have to expect that he'll be more in the gun when his team is travelling poorly than a coach who has got his team to the Grand Final three times in the last 7 years at 2 different clubs. |
Happy to disagree. Lyon has lobbed into both Saints and Freo when they were primed. Got the best out of them but as we've seen at both clubs he does nothing to build for sustained success. If the Pies decide at the end of the season to part ways with Bucks it'll be a similar scenario where the incoming replacement will look like a genius but the list build has already been done. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^^^ Some of us, of course, are capable of keeping an open mind about such things and only feel the need to comment on obvious garbage, spouted by either side of the debate. If you think there's some reason why Lyon should be judged the same way as Buckley, given Lyon's record, feel free to try to explain what that reason is. |
I'm not a Lyon fan. Think he takes a list and runs it into the ground. While that ultimately might (hasn't yet) achieve the ultimate success, it eventually leaves you with a club in need of a major overhaul. Be interesting to see how he goes lifting Freo up off the mat. Ironically, our list is now well placed for a coach like Lyon but not sure he can take it forward any better than Bucks. |
The word irony is bandied about all too often these days, but..... |
I'm assuming your implying that that is what Bucks has done but I'm firmly of the opinion that he's actually fixed a list that had significant issues, a list that would be performing considerably better if it could get close to its best 22 playing week to week. |
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Collingwood Crackerjack
Joined: 28 Jul 2008
Location: Canberra
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| jackcass wrote: | | Collingwood Crackerjack wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | | ^^^ Some of us, of course, are capable of keeping an open mind about such things and only feel the need to comment on obvious garbage, spouted by either side of the debate. If you think there's some reason why Lyon should be judged the same way as Buckley, given Lyon's record, feel free to try to explain what that reason is. |
I'm not a Lyon fan. Think he takes a list and runs it into the ground. While that ultimately might (hasn't yet) achieve the ultimate success, it eventually leaves you with a club in need of a major overhaul. Be interesting to see how he goes lifting Freo up off the mat. Ironically, our list is now well placed for a coach like Lyon but not sure he can take it forward any better than Bucks. |
The word irony is bandied about all too often these days, but..... |
I'm assuming your implying that that is what Bucks has done but I'm firmly of the opinion that he's actually fixed a list that had significant issues, a list that would be performing considerably better if it could get close to its best 22 playing week to week. |
Well, as old mate 35 says, he did take a premiership/grand finalist list, which was relatively young, and did a list major turnover
There has also been a steady decline down the ladder over the 4.5 years he has been coach, and there have been pretty bad injury issues throughout those 4.5 years
Those are facts.
Whether that means he has taken a list and run it into the ground? Thats a matter of opinion I suppose
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"The last thing he expected WAS THE FIRST THING HE GOT!!!!!"
© Collingwood Crackerjack, 1992 |
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yin-YANG
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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If the Pies manage an upset win over the cats or dogs in the next week or so this thread would probably need to be put to rest… unlikely to happen however footy can throw a few surprises around now and then - here's hoping for one or two going our way 
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Love us or Hate us... we are Collingwood - you can't ignore the Mighty Magpies!!! |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| yin-YANG wrote: | | If the Pies manage an upset win over the cats or dogs in the next week or so this thread would probably need to be put to rest… unlikely to happen however footy can throw a few surprises around now and then - here's hoping for one or two going our way |
No it appears we are looking good for the win against the cats. It doesn't mean the subject is put to rest though, really to put it to rest, we need to make the finals. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | yin-YANG wrote: | | If the Pies manage an upset win over the cats or dogs in the next week or so this thread would probably need to be put to rest… unlikely to happen however footy can throw a few surprises around now and then - here's hoping for one or two going our way |
No it appears we are looking good for the win against the cats. It doesn't mean the subject is put to rest though, really to put it to rest, we need to make the finals. |
And it don't change the fact we have changed our stoppage structures since the West Coast game. Especially inside fwd 50. Be lovely to have gotten the set ups right from the start of the year. We'd be more likely to have been 6-3 (in touch with top 4) after todays game had we had more players close to the ruck, like we did today. But better late than never. So hats off to the coaches for rectifying it. |
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Mossi 
Joined: 20 May 2002
Location: Vittorio Veneto TV Italy
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 Bucks just outcoached a premiership coach .... he must be alright!? |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | yin-YANG wrote: | | If the Pies manage an upset win over the cats or dogs in the next week or so this thread would probably need to be put to rest… unlikely to happen however footy can throw a few surprises around now and then - here's hoping for one or two going our way |
No it appears we are looking good for the win against the cats. It doesn't mean the subject is put to rest though, really to put it to rest, we need to make the finals. |
Another quiet week around nicks I expect.
_________________
No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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piedys 
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
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| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | yin-YANG wrote: | | If the Pies manage an upset win over the cats or dogs in the next week or so this thread would probably need to be put to rest… unlikely to happen however footy can throw a few surprises around now and then - here's hoping for one or two going our way |
No it appears we are looking good for the win against the cats. It doesn't mean the subject is put to rest though, really to put it to rest, we need to make the finals. |
Or at least push the top sides all the way.
I don't think any further capitulations will help his cause.
Need constant four-quarter efforts like today.
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M I L L A N E 4 2 forever |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| September Zeros wrote: | | The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | yin-YANG wrote: | | If the Pies manage an upset win over the cats or dogs in the next week or so this thread would probably need to be put to rest… unlikely to happen however footy can throw a few surprises around now and then - here's hoping for one or two going our way |
No it appears we are looking good for the win against the cats. It doesn't mean the subject is put to rest though, really to put it to rest, we need to make the finals. |
Another quiet week around nicks I expect. |
So you at least acknowledge then that since at least the west coast game the Coaches have changed the game plan? |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Unfortunately, the usual "I told you so" posts will come thick and fast, just from a different bunch of posters. Brilliant win, though. I think it was a tactical victory, too - because some of our players were quite ordinary - it wasn't like the entire side had a day out (although the 2 best players at Collingwood clocked on and clocked off in their usual methodical way). |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | yin-YANG wrote: | | If the Pies manage an upset win over the cats or dogs in the next week or so this thread would probably need to be put to rest… unlikely to happen however footy can throw a few surprises around now and then - here's hoping for one or two going our way |
No it appears we are looking good for the win against the cats. It doesn't mean the subject is put to rest though, really to put it to rest, we need to make the finals. |
Another quiet week around nicks I expect. |
So you at least acknowledge then that since at least the west coast game the Coaches have changed the game plan? |
Now don't put words in my mouth. However if they have, and if they've been proactive and found something subtlety different that works.....then all credit to them.
However I do owe you personally an apology. You pointed out Howe last week and I was all bla bla he was ok.
Well your insight was supported again today. He was magnificent across the half back line and I think we've found a little something there.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Unfortunately, the usual "I told you so" posts will come thick and fast, just from a different bunch of posters. Brilliant win, though. I think it was a tactical victory, too - because some of our players were quite ordinary - it wasn't like the entire side had a day out (although the 2 best players at Collingwood clocked on and clocked off in their usual methodical way). |
Agree. We got the better of them through structure and effort. Coaches are responsible for structure design. Players responsible for adherence to structure. The structure design was good. The adherence to structure was good. Great win especially with the cats having more scoring shots and inside 50's. Its amazing to see what this list is capable of, even with 36 players used, when the structure design is good and the effort is there. |
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