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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| swoop42 wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | of that list only fyfe is elite. the rest may be heading that way. bontempelli would be the one i'd pencil in for such a status. wingard is very talented but i wouldn't consider him elite. |
Wingard is elite now.
He's the best small forward in the game this season. |
His stats so far this year (20 disposals and 2.5 goals average per game) are better than Didak's at his peak, so Wingard'd certainly go OK in a proper black and white jumper. In fact, his performance is way ahead of GAJr at the same age.
Given the narrow definition of "elite" that people seem to prefer, he may not be in that league, just yet but he's certainly an A-grader and, if his development doesn't plateau, likely to be close to the best player in the comp in a few years. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Yep, I think we are all on the same page here. I think we will look back at this season in, say, three years' time, and be able to say something like "It's obvious that (e,g.) Wingard is A-grade and has been since 2015" - but these things become obvious only a while after they have already happened.
Most of us here thought that Jamie Elliott was verging on A-grade status up until a month or two ago. It just takes a form slump or a niggling injury to bump an aspiring A-grader back to the pack. Only after a couple of seasons of consistent A-grade performances can we make that call. For what it's worth, I reckon we will be rating Elliott, Adams, Moore, and possibly Broomhead as A-graders in three years time. I'm not going to say that about he-who-must-not-be-named-in-yet-another-thread after only one senior game, but HWMNBNIYAT is a fair prospect also. But in the meantime, the only elevations to A-grade status we can consider this year are ... um ... Sidebottom, who is not quite there yet after an injury-interrupted season, and ... er .... I can't really think of anyone else. Reid maybe. He was A-grade once, and he'd only need three good matches to reclaim that status.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Sidebottom has been the second best player at Collingwood since about half-way through 2010. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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At his best, he is awesome, P4S! But he is still too inconsistent to be a genuine A-grader. I think he's overcome his inconsistency of form now and it's just injury which is holding him back. He's only has about three really good games this year. He has started recapturing his best form in the last week or two after a long flat stretch, so I'm very hopeful that we will see some BOG performances from him through the remainder of the season, and that this time next year his A-grade status will be beyond dispute. If you were granted A-grade status off two or three excellent games on the trot, Seedsman would be A-grade. So would Fasolo.
(I don't mean to suggest that Sidey is to be compared to either of those two: Sidebottom is at very worst B or B+, a status well beyond where Seed and Fas are at so far, simply that best peak performance isn't the same thing as consistent performance.)
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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Our capacity to draft elite players who could potentially have had breakout seasons severely hampered by trading away our 1st draft pick in 2007 (Wood), 2009 (Jolly), 2010 (Krakouer & Ceglar), and 2011 (Clarke & Elliott). The only year we didn't trade that choice (2008) we selected Sidebottom.
It's only since Bucks took over that we've actively accessed the 1st round thus enhancing our chances of unearthing potential "elite" or "a-grade" recruits.
These points have repeatedly been made to the poster who bangs on ad-nauseous about our recruiting while conveniently ignoring the facts. Much better to just ignore him as he clearly isn't interested in a discussion, just a whine. |
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perthmagpie 
Joined: 27 Mar 2004
Location: Yarrawonga
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In three years I would add De Goey and Scharenberg too as the A graders with Scharenberg possibly being the most consistent. I have no evidence to back this up, it's just a feeling I have from watching his VFL games. I expect Moore will be inconsistent at times until well into the first third of his career.
Adams may win a Copeland or two as well. I still haven't given up on the idea Sidebum will win or go close to winning a Brownlow. He'll certainly grab a couple Copelands. Broomy will be the guy that pulls goals out of his bum when we need them. We will get used to seeing him walking back towards the centre calmly while other players jump all over him because just got us back into the game or kicked the match winning goal.
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Magpies love pies(Lol) |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | | of that list only fyfe is elite. the rest may be heading that way. bontempelli would be the one i'd pencil in for such a status. wingard is very talented but i wouldn't consider him elite. |
Wingard is elite now.
He's the best small forward in the game this season. |
His stats so far this year (20 disposals and 2.5 goals average per game) are better than Didak's at his peak, so Wingard'd certainly go OK in a proper black and white jumper. In fact, his performance is way ahead of GAJr at the same age.
Given the narrow definition of "elite" that people seem to prefer, he may not be in that league, just yet but he's certainly an A-grader and, if his development doesn't plateau, likely to be close to the best player in the comp in a few years. |
I think if Wingard was taken at pick 1 in his draft class, Port would still be happy with what they've got. I think that is a fair sign of an elite player.
_________________
Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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Elite status to me is playing 4+ seasons at a very high level consistently and being able to do it on the biggest stage when your team needs it. Kicking that important goal, taking that interception, winning the ball when out numbered, being able to bring team mates into the game when the heat is on. To me that's what makes a player elite.
Our skipper brings players into the game. He gives off easy goals to team mates more often I think to involve them and lift there confidence than because he doubts he can kick that goal.
Thus far I would neither Sidey nor Beams in that category yet. Both are A graders no doubt. Sidey was pick 7 be memory so he was obviously rated higher than Beams by the club. Beams at pick 27 ? Was a bargain really. I don't know how many +20 picks have won a Copeland but I wouldn't think it would be many others.
Sidney's best is elite no doubt but consistency is his issue he is in and out of games to much for mine. Beams gets plenty of the ball consistently but what he does with it isn't elite consistently and his performance in finals is poor. Beams 2012 season could be deemed elite but in the totality of his magpie career it stands alone therefore doesn't make him elite.
Swan & Pendles are elite they have done it at the high level for year upon year and are the only 2 on our list in that category.
Yes we have players coming through who could easily reach that level (Sidey, DeGoey, Adams, Scharenberg, Elliott, Fasalo, Crisp, Freeman, Moore) but they have work to do and in most cases loads of it.
Fyfe has been awesome the past 2yrs and would be rated in the top 2/3 players in the comp but he hasn't yet learned an important trait of a true champion and that's playing within the boundaries of the law of the game. His frustration could cost him a Brownlow this year yet he is 1 fine from being ineligible as we speak.
As for the other on the list for mine the K twin and O'Meara from the Suns and Bontempli are the next generation of dominate mids.
Elite will be measured against the deeds of the like of Ablett Swan Pendles etc going forward guys who redefined the way the games played.
I don't think Browlow votes gathered make you elite either. Umpires have preferred players or fav players. I seen voting when we have won a game easily and seen a pies player gather say 30 kick a couple and get 2 votes while an opponent will get 25 kick 2 and get 3 votes. Pendles for mine could be the best player of his generation not to win a Browlow but that doesn't take away from the fact everyone would class him as a elite player.
Looking backwards Sidey has a total of 28 votes with a high of 9 votes in a season and 2 seasons with 7 each. Beams has 44 votes with a high of 19 and another season of 16 (2014 in which he tied with Pendles as our highest vote getter)
Sidey has gained votes in 8.2% of the games he played and Beams in18.3% in games he played.
Swan polls in 34% of games played and Pendles in 30%. Considering how much of there careers have overlapped that's an incredible out of votes garnered by Swan and Pendles and shows why they are elite. |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | Elite status to me is playing 4+ seasons at a very high level consistently and being able to do it on the biggest stage when your team needs it. Kicking that important goal, taking that interception, winning the ball when out numbered, being able to bring team mates into the game when the heat is on. To me that's what makes a player elite.
Our skipper brings players into the game. He gives off easy goals to team mates more often I think to involve them and lift there confidence than because he doubts he can kick that goal.
Thus far I would neither Sidey nor Beams in that category yet. Both are A graders no doubt. Sidey was pick 7 be memory so he was obviously rated higher than Beams by the club. Beams at pick 27 ? Was a bargain really. I don't know how many +20 picks have won a Copeland but I wouldn't think it would be many others.
Sidney's best is elite no doubt but consistency is his issue he is in and out of games to much for mine. Beams gets plenty of the ball consistently but what he does with it isn't elite consistently and his performance in finals is poor. Beams 2012 season could be deemed elite but in the totality of his magpie career it stands alone therefore doesn't make him elite.
Swan & Pendles are elite they have done it at the high level for year upon year and are the only 2 on our list in that category.
Yes we have players coming through who could easily reach that level (Sidey, DeGoey, Adams, Scharenberg, Elliott, Fasalo, Crisp, Freeman, Moore) but they have work to do and in most cases loads of it.
Fyfe has been awesome the past 2yrs and would be rated in the top 2/3 players in the comp but he hasn't yet learned an important trait of a true champion and that's playing within the boundaries of the law of the game. His frustration could cost him a Brownlow this year yet he is 1 fine from being ineligible as we speak.
As for the other on the list for mine the K twin and O'Meara from the Suns and Bontempli are the next generation of dominate mids.
Elite will be measured against the deeds of the like of Ablett Swan Pendles etc going forward guys who redefined the way the games played.
I don't think Browlow votes gathered make you elite either. Umpires have preferred players or fav players. I seen voting when we have won a game easily and seen a pies player gather say 30 kick a couple and get 2 votes while an opponent will get 25 kick 2 and get 3 votes. Pendles for mine could be the best player of his generation not to win a Browlow but that doesn't take away from the fact everyone would class him as a elite player.
Looking backwards Sidey has a total of 28 votes with a high of 9 votes in a season and 2 seasons with 7 each. Beams has 44 votes with a high of 19 and another season of 16 (2014 in which he tied with Pendles as our highest vote getter)
Sidey has gained votes in 8.2% of the games he played and Beams in18.3% in games he played.
Swan polls in 34% of games played and Pendles in 30%. Considering how much of there careers have overlapped that's an incredible out of votes garnered by Swan and Pendles and shows why they are elite. |
I agree on your definition of elite. However, I wonder if your analysis of draft picks using "elite" as the standard makes any sense at all. You appear to be analyzing our last 4 years of draft picks using a standard that by your own definition cannot be satisfied by any player inside of 4 years at a minimum, but more like 6 years in practice.
I am not sure even Nathan fyfe has been that player for 4 years.
Anyway, the success in drafting shouldn't be judged by how many elite players you have on your list. You cant predict what will make a good player elite.
I think a recognized A-grader (meaning the best 2 or three players in his position) is a better test in analyzing success in the draft.
by way of example, there is no doubt that taking Chad Wingard at 5 was a draft coup by Port Adelaide. Of that there can be no question. Even if he has only been playing around 3 years.
isn't that the intent of your post. To judge Collingwood's recent draft success?
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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| E wrote: | | qldmagpie67 wrote: | Elite status to me is playing 4+ seasons at a very high level consistently and being able to do it on the biggest stage when your team needs it. Kicking that important goal, taking that interception, winning the ball when out numbered, being able to bring team mates into the game when the heat is on. To me that's what makes a player elite.
Our skipper brings players into the game. He gives off easy goals to team mates more often I think to involve them and lift there confidence than because he doubts he can kick that goal.
Thus far I would neither Sidey nor Beams in that category yet. Both are A graders no doubt. Sidey was pick 7 be memory so he was obviously rated higher than Beams by the club. Beams at pick 27 ? Was a bargain really. I don't know how many +20 picks have won a Copeland but I wouldn't think it would be many others.
Sidney's best is elite no doubt but consistency is his issue he is in and out of games to much for mine. Beams gets plenty of the ball consistently but what he does with it isn't elite consistently and his performance in finals is poor. Beams 2012 season could be deemed elite but in the totality of his magpie career it stands alone therefore doesn't make him elite.
Swan & Pendles are elite they have done it at the high level for year upon year and are the only 2 on our list in that category.
Yes we have players coming through who could easily reach that level (Sidey, DeGoey, Adams, Scharenberg, Elliott, Fasalo, Crisp, Freeman, Moore) but they have work to do and in most cases loads of it.
Fyfe has been awesome the past 2yrs and would be rated in the top 2/3 players in the comp but he hasn't yet learned an important trait of a true champion and that's playing within the boundaries of the law of the game. His frustration could cost him a Brownlow this year yet he is 1 fine from being ineligible as we speak.
As for the other on the list for mine the K twin and O'Meara from the Suns and Bontempli are the next generation of dominate mids.
Elite will be measured against the deeds of the like of Ablett Swan Pendles etc going forward guys who redefined the way the games played.
I don't think Browlow votes gathered make you elite either. Umpires have preferred players or fav players. I seen voting when we have won a game easily and seen a pies player gather say 30 kick a couple and get 2 votes while an opponent will get 25 kick 2 and get 3 votes. Pendles for mine could be the best player of his generation not to win a Browlow but that doesn't take away from the fact everyone would class him as a elite player.
Looking backwards Sidey has a total of 28 votes with a high of 9 votes in a season and 2 seasons with 7 each. Beams has 44 votes with a high of 19 and another season of 16 (2014 in which he tied with Pendles as our highest vote getter)
Sidey has gained votes in 8.2% of the games he played and Beams in18.3% in games he played.
Swan polls in 34% of games played and Pendles in 30%. Considering how much of there careers have overlapped that's an incredible out of votes garnered by Swan and Pendles and shows why they are elite. |
I agree on your definition of elite. However, I wonder if your analysis of draft picks using "elite" as the standard makes any sense at all. You appear to be analyzing our last 4 years of draft picks using a standard that by your own definition cannot be satisfied by any player inside of 4 years at a minimum, but more like 6 years in practice.
I am not sure even Nathan fyfe has been that player for 4 years.
Anyway, the success in drafting shouldn't be judged by how many elite players you have on your list. You cant predict what will make a good player elite.
I think a recognized A-grader (meaning the best 2 or three players in his position) is a better test in analyzing success in the draft.
by way of example, there is no doubt that taking Chad Wingard at 5 was a draft coup by Port Adelaide. Of that there can be no question. Even if he has only been playing around 3 years.
isn't that the intent of your post. To judge Collingwood's recent draft success? |
Fair call E I don't care about other clubs players who may be elite or not (unless they become pies players) hence the limited mention of any. I focused more on Sidey Beams because that's the last draft where by my our opinion/standard any player has the chance to be elite. Also I focused on Swan/Pendles as by anyone's definition they are/were elite.
I made comparison where I could between the 4 players and whilst I don't rate the Brownlow voting system it does show that the true elite are getting voters in 1 in 3 games
Our drafting from 2009 until 2012 was compromised by our list filling and the nature of the drafts with GWS & Suns being handed the cream of the crop.
So really our next batch of elite players won't appear until 2017 onwards.
So really our only chance now is Sidey
For what it's worth I believe the next superstar of the game will be Jaeger O'Meara and if I had the chance to get him I would |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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So, then, would we all take the view that - right at this moment - none of the following players could - on even the most ridiculously stretched meaning of the word - be called "elite":
2009
Grimley
Stratton
Jordan Williams
Hooper
Duryea
2010
Isaac Smith
Hallahan
Litherland
Puopolo
2011
Brad Hill
Jordan Kelly
Alex Woodward
2012
Tim O'Brien
Kaiden Brand
2013
Billy Hartung
Dayle Garlett
James Sicily
2014
Daniel Howe
Teia Miles
Marc Pittonet? |
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simon tonna
Joined: 24 Oct 2013
Location: carindale
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already an A+ player:
dylan sheil
jesse hogan
jake stringer
bontempelli
Jamie elliot
daube beams
chad wingard
to name just a few.
I mention them as they come to mind first as team lifting players at a consistent level.
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no second chances |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| So, no Hawthorn post-2008 drafted players, then, ST? |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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according to some on this board, Puopolo is the second coming a Jesus Christ himself.
I would say Isaac Smith, Hill and Puopolo are more than handy players, but the core of hawthorn's success can be traced to their tanking years where they picked up the likes of:
Hodge
Mitchell
Roughhead
Franklin
Lewis
and their shrewd trading policy that netted them the likes of:
Lake
Burgoyne
Gibson
and about three ruckmen/forwards
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| ^^^ It's surprising, isn't it, how you can start a thread to give everyone an opportunity to express their views in detail about such issues but the people most vocal about it don't want to play at all? |
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