The Greens vs Labor
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: The Greens vs Labor |  |
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<split from 'Dandrews' thread>
| 3.14159 wrote: | | David, you are the epitome of why I'd never "even in a pink fit" vote for the Greens |
A bit harsh. What's your beef with the Greens, and what is it about me that epitomises your antagonism towards them?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| David wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: | | David, you are the epitome of why I'd never "even in a pink fit" vote for the Greens |
A bit harsh. What's your beef with the Greens, and what is it about me that epitomises your antagonism towards them? |
Why don't like the Greens?
They are the party of a thousand voices and million policies!
If you don't like what one Greens spokes-person says about an issue, wait a few days ask some-one else!
Their policies (such as they are) are scatter-gun and ill aimed and seldom bare any resemblance to what's actually happening in the real world.
I could forgive them for being the party of the naive and home of the loonie green left if they didn't take their eye off the ball so often.
I'd give you some examples but it would just start an argument so I'll just say if the Greens really were serious about tackling climate change they would doing their level best to get rid of Abbott A.S.A.P but all they do is back on the side-lines criticising both Labour and Libs and dreaming up ever more crack-pot schemes like opening all boarders to the worlds 20 million refugees!
Why is that such a bad idea?
Because it will not cure the world's refugee problem, it open the flood-gates to an ocean of humanity chasing the latest world economic hot-spot sweeping the environment away in the process!
The Greens do not think their policies/pipe-dreams through to their logical conclusions.
In my mind the Libs and the Greens are 2 sides of the same dogmatic coin but antagonism?
I consider them as relevant as a fart in the wind so I rarely mention them! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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http://greens.org.au/policies/immigration-refugees
I don't see anything here about open borders. Just the same basic policies that both the Liberals and the ALP supported until about 15 years ago
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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So now the Greens are taking refuge in the policies of the past?
I thought that was But Abbott's preserve? 
(2 sides of the same coin!)
The Greens thinking we are living at the innocent dawn of the 21 st century pre 9-11 pre-invasion of Afghanistan, pre-Iraq, pre-arab spring, pre the flood of "refugees" sailing the Med looking for a place to land etc etc shows just how out of touch and irrelevant their policies really are!
(The only thing older than The Greens policy is Bronwyn (you can't touch me, I'm Tony Abbott's "love mother") Bishop and her rorting of her parliamentary entitlements!
Do the Greens have an established position on this or is silence golden?
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:47 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Actually, we all technically live in the past. Living in the present is problematic because by the time you experience any sensation it has already happened and, drumroll please, is in the (very recent) past. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 3.14159 wrote: | So now the Greens are taking refuge in the policies of the past?
I thought that was But Abbott's preserve?
(2 sides of the same coin!)
The Greens thinking we are living at the innocent dawn of the 21 st century pre 9-11 pre-invasion of Afghanistan, pre-Iraq, etc etc shows just how out of touch and irrelevant their policies really are!
There's an old saying,
"the past is a like foreign country, they do things differently there". |
Social Democrats still around in Germany after 1933 were 'living in the past' too. Were they just behind the times, or did they just recognise that their country had taken a turn for the worse?
(Godwin can go take a hike. )
Seriously, I don't get this dismissal of the Greens from progressives. Criticise them on their economic policies if you like (which are improving every year, but admittedly still not their strongest point), but apart from that, what have they done that is so terrible?
Their policies on environmental protection, renewables and climate change from years back have been well and truly vindicated. Their support for the rights of minorities (e.g. the LGBTI community) has remained consistently strong whilst the Coalition trampled on them and the ALP made deals with Family First. They were the only ones, except perhaps for the ailing Democrats, to seriously speak out against the Iraq War. They don't like locking little kids up indefinitely in detention centres. They support workers' rights and unions.
Do you disagree with all these positions? If not, can you explain why you support a party that has only ever offered half-baked platitudes in these areas instead?
I understand why people who vote for Abbott dislike the Greens. When Labor supporters attack them, however, it just sounds desperate and unconvincing.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Why are we here?
Labor and the Greens started from ideologically utterly different places.What they have in common is a reasonable percentage of their supporters ideologies.
But being a Greens supporter does not guarantee you support labor and vice versa.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| David wrote: |
I understand why people who vote for Abbott dislike the Greens. When Labor supporters attack them, however, it just sounds desperate and unconvincing. |
I'm sorry it sounds desperate and unconvincing but it really is d.i.l.k.i.g.a.f.w.t.G.t?
I rarely attack the Greens but the sight(?) of you and stui clammering like a slathering Roman lynch-mob at every utterance or hint at scandal involving Bill Shorten and/or the Royal Commission into Labour Leaders Past Present and future makes me very sad.
It doesn't matter what Bill Shorten may or may not have been, I don't know because I don't believe everything I see on TV or read in the paper and view Royal Commission with plenty of scepticism now they have been reduced to level a Kangaroo Court/Spanish Inquisition so I have no idea who's telling the truth but I keep coming back to the same point, when are going to start talking about the issues that really matter, ie the budget, negative gearing (so young people like you can one dae own a home with-out having to live to 150 just to save enough for a down payment!) etc etc.
Labour will get behind your same sex marriage bill, Labour will tackle Government rorting, Labour cares about peoples jobs everything the Greens want they will get with the help of Labour but the Greens must get on board and put Climate change right back there in the Spot-light instead being hyjacked by notorious Union bashers like Stui!
p.s (Next time I'll tell you what I really think! Xx  ) |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | David wrote: |
I understand why people who vote for Abbott dislike the Greens. When Labor supporters attack them, however, it just sounds desperate and unconvincing. |
I'm sorry it sounds desperate and unconvincing but it really is d.i.l.k.i.g.a.f.w.t.G.t?
I rarely attack the Greens but the sight(?) of you and stui clammering like a slathering Roman lynch-mob at every utterance or hint at scandal involving Bill Shorten and/or the Royal Commission into Labour Leaders Past Present and future makes me very sad.
It doesn't matter what Bill Shorten may or may not have been, I don't know because I don't believe everything I see on TV or read in the paper and view Royal Commission with plenty of scepticism now they have been reduced to level a Kangaroo Court/Spanish Inquisition so I have no idea who's telling the truth but I keep coming back to the same point, when are going to start talking about the issues that really matter, ie the budget, negative gearing (so young people like you can one dae own a home with-out having to live to 150 just to save enough for a down payment!) etc etc.
Labour will get behind your same sex marriage bill, Labour will tackle Government rorting, Labour cares about peoples jobs everything the Greens want they will get with the help of Labour but the Greens must get on board and put Climate change right back there in the Spot-light instead being hyjacked by notorious Union bashers like Stui!
p.s (Next time I'll tell you what I really think! Xx ) |
<*******************>
Next time I'll tell you what I really think. 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down.
Last edited by stui magpie on Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:12 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| The past and future are one. In what way do I sound like that? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It's funny you mention negative gearing. What actually is Labor's stance on that? I don't recall them doing much about it last time they were in government.
I'm realistic enough to accept that, should there ever be a Greens government, it's decades away at best. What that means is that I genuinely hope we get a Labor government at the next election.
I'm not completely pessimistic about that prospect. I expect that they'll be sound economic managers and that we'll see little of the outrageously regressive policymaking of this government. But those two criteria are the absolute baseline of what a functional government should be; they're not enough on their own.
What I want to see is forward thinking; courage; a willingness to do the ethical and intelligent thing and not capitulate to easy populist scare campaigns; compassion for the vulnerable; protection of democracy against the encroachment of internal and external interest groups; the preservation and improvement of crucial infrastructure; pro-active not reactive decisionmaking; a progressive discourse that challenges as opposed to insulting the intelligence of the Australian public.
I'm not confident that the Shorten government can provide much or all of that. I have not seen much so far to suggest that they are capable of it. I do not believe that the ALP's internal structure can successfully respond to these challenges any more. I am, however, sincere when I say that I desperately hope they prove me wrong on all counts.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | What I want to see is forward thinking; courage; a willingness to do the ethical and intelligent thing and not capitulate to easy populist scare campaigns; compassion for the vulnerable; protection of democracy against the encroachment of internal and external interest groups; the preservation and improvement of crucial infrastructure; pro-active not reactive decisionmaking; a progressive discourse that challenges as opposed to insulting the intelligence of the Australian public.
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Well, um, I think we’d all like to see that, David. What those things mean in practice for you, however, might be 270 degrees different from what it means for me.
For me, societies really “progress” because of (i) strong, independent and tested institutions rooted in shared history ; (ii) a culture that deeply values individual responsibility (preferably via sound family structures) ; (iii) a powerful system for allocating saved resources effectively among competing opportunities ; and (iv) a capacity for short-term sacrifice in the interests of long-term objectives, rather than feel-good gestures made with other people’s money. I would never vote for Abbott, but I don’t get the feeling that Labour exactly represents these.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| stui magpie wrote: |
<*******************>
Next time I'll tell you what I really think. |
Thanks, but if I want your opinion, i'll watch the Blot Report! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | What I want to see is forward thinking; courage; a willingness to do the ethical and intelligent thing and not capitulate to easy populist scare campaigns; compassion for the vulnerable; protection of democracy against the encroachment of internal and external interest groups; the preservation and improvement of crucial infrastructure; pro-active not reactive decisionmaking; a progressive discourse that challenges as opposed to insulting the intelligence of the Australian public.
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Well, um, I think we’d all like to see that, David. What those things mean in practice for you, however, might be 270 degrees different from what it means for me.
For me, societies really “progress” because of (i) strong, independent and tested institutions rooted in shared history ; (ii) a culture that deeply values individual responsibility (preferably via sound family structures) ; (iii) a powerful system for allocating saved resources effectively among competing opportunities ; and (iv) a capacity for short-term sacrifice in the interests of long-term objectives, rather than feel-good gestures made with other people’s money. I would never vote for Abbott, but I don’t get the feeling that Labour exactly represents these. |
We might differ in the detail, but again, I'm on the same page with you on all of those broad statements except for the second one. I don't think 'individual responsibility' is a useful foundation on which to build culture or policy; I'm more interested in structures.
I do find this kind of discussion refreshing, though, because it gives us such a broader scope to deal with stuff like party politics philosophically – i.e., if we share the same values, why do we disagree on finer points, and how can those disagreements be resolved? Does it really all just boil down to data?
While 'issues' are often an easy way to get into these subjects, I often feel like too much of a focus on them can end up being a distraction from the big topics. Worse, they can allow us to slip into partisan dichotomies where we end up adopting a whole swathe of 'positions' unthinkingly.
That's something I've always tried to guard against in myself, though I think we all fall into barracking from time to time.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
<*******************>
Next time I'll tell you what I really think. |
Thanks, but if I want your opinion, i'll watch the Blot Report! |
ZING!!!
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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