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mandy 
Joined: 03 Jun 2001
Location: Glen Iris
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| Dangles wrote: | | I don't know, which makes it hard for me. My youngest son gravitated to playing with his sister's toys when he was little and has always liked things that have been deemed girls stuff like toys, clothes etc. His mother has been quite prepared to go down the he's a girl in a boy's body or gay path. On the other hand my conservative parents have been horrified and blame the mother for "encouraging" this type of behavior. I find myself stuck in the middle not knowing what to do. On one hand if he is gay or trans I don't want to shame him for it but on the other he might just be a boy who likes things that society has said are for girls only. As he's only 10 I don't want to be locking him in to some box labeled gay, straight, trans or whatever. What complicates it even further is that he has Asperger's syndrome so there's another range of issues to consider. There're no easy answers and I'm constantly worried about doing the wrong thing. |
With so much discrimination and fear in the world these days, this is one of the most refreshing and encouraging posts I've ever read. You sound like a really caring and committed Dad, regardless of any outcome.
Good for you. If only all parents, regardless of outcomes, could love this unconditionally. What a lucky boy you have.
_________________
#TEAMBUCKS
#TEAMEDDIE
#TEAMCOLLINGWOOD
#SIDEBYSIDE |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | Tannin, just coming back to something you posted earlier in the thread:
| Tannin wrote: | | The fiction that we are born gay (or otherwise) is indeed a fiction, but a useful one. The determinants of sexual preference are complex, subtle, and not amenable to deliberate manipulation, least of all to Bible-bashing prayer and exhortation. For the purposes of practicality, for the sake of having a simple, anyone-can-understand message that saves untold misery and approximates to the far more complex truth, just stick with the "born gay" theme. It's not actually true, but it's close enough. |
What does this actually mean in practice? In what contexts should this 'useful fiction' be maintained? |
Basically, all contexts except genuine, evidence-based scientific discussion. The reality is complex and subtle and it is not reasonable to try to communicate that reality outside of a specialist context where your peers have appropriate training. If you do, all you get is misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and willful exaggeration by people with harmful (mostly religious) barrows to push. The "you are born one way or another" explanation is not strictly true, but it is far closer to the truth than any other simple explanation most people are likely to hear or understand, and is a very workable practical approximation to the truth to use in daily life.
Think of it as being equivalent to Newtonian physics. Yes, yes, we know that in this post Einstein world the Newtonian equations of mass and momentum and energy are wrong, but we use them nevertheless; we use them every day with perfect satisfaction to design bridges, catch cricket balls, cook meals, and so on. We only resort to the subtleties of relativity in those (fairly rare and specialised) circumstances where the question is out of the ordinary and the skills of the questioner are up to the required standard.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^I know what you mean and I think it has been an effective emphasis in recent decades, especially with the rise of genetic science. The problem now is (a) it's a red rag to the David contrarian bulls of the world  , (b) it's running in the opposite direction to what sister movements such as feminism and post-genderists are trying to achieve, and (c) cognitive science is complicating it.
I would like to see the data on this and hear from gay folk, but I also suspect it has stronger support from our generation for whom it was no doubt a helpful approach and personal thought. It is probably facing diminishing returns under the complexity of contemporary cognitive science and postmodern thought, though.
The simplest enduring explanation might yet end up this: People are who they are and if you can't cope with the richness of humanity, then f^%$k off to North Korea! 
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Tannin wrote: | | Basically, all contexts except genuine, evidence-based scientific discussion. The reality is complex and subtle and it is not reasonable to try to communicate that reality outside of a specialist context where your peers have appropriate training. If you do, all you get is misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and willful exaggeration by people with harmful (mostly religious) barrows to push. The "you are born one way or another" explanation is not strictly true, but it is far closer to the truth than any other simple explanation most people are likely to hear or understand, and is a very workable practical approximation to the truth to use in daily life. |
Well, by pointing to a specialist context, you've pretty much ruled out all lay discussion, including this very thread! And, might I add, the blog post I quoted from up the top, and really any discussion of these issues in the newspapers. Or an intellectual discussion with friends at the pub. If the topic came up in any of those contexts ("is homosexuality purely biological?") and I felt compelled to answer "yes it is, shut up" when I don't actually believe that to be the case, I'd feel like I was cheating myself and everybody else.
I'm sure that's not what you meant, but if those contexts are fair game for open discussion, what isn't? A discussion at the dinner table with your homophobic great aunt? Even that seems patronising. What's wrong with an answer like "nobody chooses to be gay, but it's a mix of nature and environment"?
I'm not sure the analogy of Newtonian Physics works here. If it turns out that homosexuality is caused by social/environmental factors as well as biology, then that's a pretty significant and fundamental contradiction to the "born gay" claim. Why would we keep peddling that myth (presuming it is one) if its only goal is to support a political cause? Isn't that a pretty poor principle to follow?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| pietillidie wrote: | | The simplest enduring explanation might yet end up this: People are who they are and if you can't cope with the richness of humanity, then f^%$k off to North Korea! |
Amen to that, Comrade PTID!
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | Well, by pointing to a specialist context, you've pretty much ruled out all lay discussion, including this very thread! |
No. Not "ruled out". But put it in its proper place as a complex and difficult subject which - just like relativity - takes a fair bit of work and a lot of background knowledge to get a decent handle on. I don't object to this discussion any more than I'd object to a discussion here of advances in quantum physics or the interesting intricacies of calculating position from a GPS satellite (which requires, among other things, adjustment for relativistic effects), but I wouldn't take those discussions too seriously or expect them to achieve too much. But chat away by all means. Just remember that it's deep water and the potential for error is large!
| David wrote: | | I'm sure that's not what you meant, but if those contexts are fair game for open discussion, what isn't? A discussion at the dinner table with your homophobic great aunt? Even that seems patronising. What's wrong with an answer like "nobody chooses to be gay, but it's a mix of nature and environment"? |
Simply that it doesn't provide her with something she can understand and use as a practical guide to action. It provides her with a vague nothing-in-particular, and you would need to go way deeper than that to get anywhere useful.
Compare with "lots of people are just born that way, Granny" or (better still) "some people just are, Granny". That's a simple message which helps her deal with it in a practical way. Insofar as it is valid to regard "truth" as "that which leads to right action" and "falsehood" as "that which leads to wrong action" - and these are in the long run the only always-valid tests of truth - the "born that way" answer is a good deal more truthful than the vague one you prefer.
You have a child, David. What do you say: "this is probably not an ideal moment for adding further stress to a very fine woman who has just got home from a tough day at the office and really loves you but is distracted by having to deal with some difficult work-related issues at the moment and may not respond as you would wish"? Or "Mummy is tired, ask her later"? Which one, in context, is more truthful?
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Tannin wrote: | | Insofar as it is valid to regard "truth" as "that which leads to right action" and "falsehood" as "that which leads to wrong action" - and these are in the long run the only always-valid tests of truth - the "born that way" answer is a good deal more truthful than the vague one you prefer. |
That's funny, I would have defined truth as "that which is true" and falsehood as "that which is not true". 
A partial truth may seem to serve a more immediate political purpose, but I can't help but suspect (here's my Christian upbringing coming through again) that lying has double the negative consequences down the track.
One practical problem is that pursuing this discourse may actually harden the resolve of people who oppose gay rights. Let's say, for instance, that you're talking to someone who's disposed to thinking of homosexuality as something that people choose. If you reach for the "born gay" discourse and their basic understanding of nature/nurture makes them doubt that, then they may doubt the credibility of everything else you say on the topic, and it may lead them to think that "well, if people aren't fully born gay, then homosexuality must be a choice".
Come to think of it, that's more or less exactly the dichotomy that our society has provided on this topic. You're born gay, or you choose it.
On the other hand, if you point out that nature/environment are both unchosen, then you demolish that dichotomy and, potentially, actually provide a much more compelling argument. And that's an argument that is perfectly compatible with the excellent response of "some people just are" (or "people can't help who they're attracted to"). Surely something that even our hypothetical not-too-bright Granny can understand, with no questionable assertions of biological determinism required.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Bah. You can't define "truth" as "equal to "truth". That is meaningless.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It's true, though. 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Yes, of course, there are times when a more nuanced approach is appropriate. Nevertheless, these are few. If you think you can persuade everyone (or even more than just the odd one) to have the decency to accept people as themselves by complex, reasoned, intellectual argument, you've been living in Fitzroy for too long.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Curiously, truth can be - and indeed must be defined by tautology, but in a far more subtle way, best summarised by Gregory Bateson as "that which stays true longer than that which stays true not so long does indeed stay true longer than that which stays true not so long". This is the fundamental rule of mind, of nature, of evolution, of social dynamics, of economics. See if you can track down a copy of his Mind and Nature. You would find endless fascination and not a little understanding in it.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Interesting stuff, Tannin, thanks. Will keep an eye out for it!
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I thought so too. |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| mandy wrote: | | Dangles wrote: | | I don't know, which makes it hard for me. My youngest son gravitated to playing with his sister's toys when he was little and has always liked things that have been deemed girls stuff like toys, clothes etc. His mother has been quite prepared to go down the he's a girl in a boy's body or gay path. On the other hand my conservative parents have been horrified and blame the mother for "encouraging" this type of behavior. I find myself stuck in the middle not knowing what to do. On one hand if he is gay or trans I don't want to shame him for it but on the other he might just be a boy who likes things that society has said are for girls only. As he's only 10 I don't want to be locking him in to some box labeled gay, straight, trans or whatever. What complicates it even further is that he has Asperger's syndrome so there's another range of issues to consider. There're no easy answers and I'm constantly worried about doing the wrong thing. |
With so much discrimination and fear in the world these days, this is one of the most refreshing and encouraging posts I've ever read. You sound like a really caring and committed Dad, regardless of any outcome.
Good for you. If only all parents, regardless of outcomes, could love this unconditionally. What a lucky boy you have. |
Thanks for that. It's very kind of you. |
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