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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: Baby, you weren't born this way |  |
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Are people 'born' gay or straight? Popular culture tells us we are, but I've always been a little sceptical about that claim.
Here's a long-ish, but really interesting article on the topic:
http://aeon.co/magazine/society/why-born-gay-is-a-dangerous-idea/
| Quote: | The proffered perspective is that sexuality is not a choice, but a way we are born. Getting Americans to believe this was a struggle. In 1977, according to the first Gallup poll on the question, only 13 per cent of Americans believed people were born gay. Even in 1990, only 20 per cent thought of sexuality as biologically innate. Yet since 2011 support has spiked, and today just under half of Americans think that the sexuality of gays and lesbians is determined at birth. Support for gay marriage and support for the idea of being ‘born that way’ closely track one another.
While this biological determinism of sexuality has been associated with a great triumph for the gay-rights movement, it’s been a great loss for our public discourse. The battle for gay marriage has been won, and other, even more challenging battles lie before the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) movement. To succeed in them, activists and scholars must abandon the fundamental fiction they have propagated. The false belief in biological determinism does considerable damage. It marginalises some of the most precarious members of the gay community, such as the transgendered; it limits our capacity to discuss what makes a good and just community; and it leads many of us to misunderstand ourselves and society. |
I agree with a lot of the points in the article, but am not sure about the suggestion that "born gay" is a dangerous idea. Does it matter? Is this even a political question? Isn't it just a factual matter for science to resolve?
What do you think?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Some people are 'born' gay or, but not all. It matters to me. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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^ Which is about as good an answer as you'll get.
Well, OK, I'll add a bit. The fiction that we are born gay (or otherwise) is indeed a fiction, but a useful one. The determinants of sexual preference are complex, subtle, and not amenable to deliberate manipulation, least of all to Bible-bashing prayer and exhortation. For the purposes of practicality, for the sake of having a simple, anyone-can-understand message that saves untold misery and approximates to the far more complex truth, just stick with the "born gay" theme. It's not actually true, but it's close enough.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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IMO you are born gay or wired that way just as people can be born with a male brain inside a female body (and vice versa).
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Like so much it's a little from column A and a little from column B. There would be genetic factors and environmental factors and different people would be more or less influenced by each. This would create something like a 'spectrum' of sexuality (which has already been done in a study back in the stone ages some time... you know the 50s and 60s).  |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| I don't know, which makes it hard for me. My youngest son gravitated to playing with his sister's toys when he was little and has always liked things that have been deemed girls stuff like toys, clothes etc. His mother has been quite prepared to go down the he's a girl in a boy's body or gay path. On the other hand my conservative parents have been horrified and blame the mother for "encouraging" this type of behavior. I find myself stuck in the middle not knowing what to do. On one hand if he is gay or trans I don't want to shame him for it but on the other he might just be a boy who likes things that society has said are for girls only. As he's only 10 I don't want to be locking him in to some box labeled gay, straight, trans or whatever. What complicates it even further is that he has Asperger's syndrome so there's another range of issues to consider. There're no easy answers and I'm constantly worried about doing the wrong thing. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| swoop42 wrote: | | IMO you are born gay or wired that way just as people can be born with a male brain inside a female body (and vice versa). |
There's very little evidence that sexuality works that way, though. Studies have suggested that some genes may increase your likelihood of being gay, but that's not necessarily the same thing as being 'born' gay - you still may need to be subjected to a range of social/environmental factors.
Obviously it's not a 'choice', though.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Dangles wrote: | | I don't know, which makes it hard for me. My youngest son gravitated to playing with his sister's toys when he was little and has always liked things that have been deemed girls stuff like toys, clothes etc. His mother has been quite prepared to go down the he's a girl in a boy's body or gay path. On the other hand my conservative parents have been horrified and blame the mother for "encouraging" this type of behavior. I find myself stuck in the middle not knowing what to do. On one hand if he is gay or trans I don't want to shame him for it but on the other he might just be a boy who likes things that society has said are for girls only. As he's only 10 I don't want to be locking him in to some box labeled gay, straight, trans or whatever. What complicates it even further is that he has Asperger's syndrome so there's another range of issues to consider. There're no easy answers and I'm constantly worried about doing the wrong thing. |
I don't know if it helps, but having read that I'd say it sounds like you're doing exactly the right thing. As you say, he doesn't need to be put in a box.
How is it for him at school?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| David wrote: | | Dangles wrote: | | I don't know, which makes it hard for me. My youngest son gravitated to playing with his sister's toys when he was little and has always liked things that have been deemed girls stuff like toys, clothes etc. His mother has been quite prepared to go down the he's a girl in a boy's body or gay path. On the other hand my conservative parents have been horrified and blame the mother for "encouraging" this type of behavior. I find myself stuck in the middle not knowing what to do. On one hand if he is gay or trans I don't want to shame him for it but on the other he might just be a boy who likes things that society has said are for girls only. As he's only 10 I don't want to be locking him in to some box labeled gay, straight, trans or whatever. What complicates it even further is that he has Asperger's syndrome so there's another range of issues to consider. There're no easy answers and I'm constantly worried about doing the wrong thing. |
I don't know if it helps, but having read that I'd say it sounds like you're doing exactly the right thing. As you say, he doesn't need to be put in a box.
How is it for him at school? |
Socially he struggles at school because he's not into sport and all the other "boy stuff" or mainstream stuff. Plus, people with Asperger's tend to struggle socially anyway. He doesn't get directly bullied that much but he often feels excluded and marginalized. At times he goes through phases when he has kids to play with but when that runs its course unlike most kids he finds it difficult to just move on to another group and will go through periods of being on his own. In terms of behavior and his school work he's an excellent student. I'm hoping to send him to Princess Hill secondary when he finishes primary school because I hear they have a great reputation for embracing diversity.He's also seeing a counsellor at the moment who speacilizes in kids with Asperger's so hopefully that'll help too. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Sounds challenging, but not as bad as I thought it might be. Things have certainly improved from a generation ago, by the sounds of things. Good luck with the application, and hope he has a better experience at high school.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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I'm not necessarily convinced playing with barbies makes him gay, trans or even overly sensitive. I played with train sets, and toy cars etc, I can never understand why it's so different when it's boys, than when it's girls. Does his Aspergers make him more sensitive than your average boy? Not a bad thing! Good luck mate, we all need luck when raising our kids, as long as they are healthy and happy who cares what they choose to play with?
As for the other, well, I reckon your just wired that way. Don't want to go down the environment path, then you just get the haters saying that's why gay folk should not be allowed to have kids! I'm guessing some are no so far down either path and do make a choice, just as some kids don't care if they get the blue or red Christmas cracker, whereas I would howl if someone else got the blue one, and I got anything but!
Does it matter? Do we need to remove the gender signs from the aisles of target? Doesn't bother me, maybe just put all the Lego sets together and have a Lego sign instead!
I guess with a parent the labels scare is because we want to protect our kids, and any thing that is not "the norm" invites attention and/or nicknames, and we all want our kids to have the easy path. Well most of us!
Good luck to your son, just let him be who ever he is meant to be. And it sound like you are doing just that.
Cheers
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| Thanks for the kind words, guys. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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A post of outstanding quality from TP. As she says, gay/straight has little or nothing to do with liking pink toys or blue toys, dresses or pants, horses or cars. Two completely different matters which we should not confuse.
Like her, I wish you and your boy all the best - andd, honestly, it doesn't matter whether he likes pink or blue just so long as he wears black and white stripes on game day!
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Tannin, just coming back to something you posted earlier in the thread:
| Tannin wrote: | ^ Which is about as good an answer as you'll get.
Well, OK, I'll add a bit. The fiction that we are born gay (or otherwise) is indeed a fiction, but a useful one. The determinants of sexual preference are complex, subtle, and not amenable to deliberate manipulation, least of all to Bible-bashing prayer and exhortation. For the purposes of practicality, for the sake of having a simple, anyone-can-understand message that saves untold misery and approximates to the far more complex truth, just stick with the "born gay" theme. It's not actually true, but it's close enough. |
What does this actually mean in practice? In what contexts should this 'useful fiction' be maintained?
Personally, I'd prefer to discuss all topics openly without sugarcoating them out of fear of misinterpretation. It seems silly to argue something that I don't actually believe.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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My 2 cents worth is that I believe sexual orientation, as Tannin suggests, is determined by a lot of things, but there's basically bugger all you can do to influence it.
Giving a little boy dolls to play with isn't going to make him gay, him wanting to play with dolls means bugger all.
The other thing to remember is that it really shouldn't be as simple as trying to fit people into a box by saying they're either gay or straight, you can have degrees. Like any other personality trait (for want of a better term) you can have the extremes at either end of the spectrum through to something in the middle which is neither.
David, to use an example, identifies as mainly straight but has had gay relationships. Someone could have a preference for females but likes a male partner for a change every now and then.
In an ideal world sexual orientation wouldn't even be a discussion point and people can root whatever they like as long as it's legally consensual.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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