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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| So why does Iran have to give up nukes when America and Israel don't? |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | Here you go, Stui.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain
While he's obviously the poster boy for appeasement, I feel it's an analogy that gets raised wayyy too often. Memo to everyone: one PM making a deal with Hitler doesn't make all diplomacy bad.  |
Godwin's law is about Nazi references FFS -
The analogy regarding Nifty is not related to Nazis per se (unless you're being to literal - which you were) but is about making assumptions too quickly as in "Peace in our time" in a colossal miscalculation for the time. The Nazis have nouwt to do wif it guvner. In other words you're falsely applying Godwin's law in my understanding of the term.
Bloody lefty literalists
& really whether you feel it gets raised way to often is neither here nor there. My concern is more with literalists & fundamentalists: Iran in this instance.
However I was less than accommodating for the new treaty yeah. As PTID mentioned perhaps I was a bit too harsh initially:
They are only saying "Death to America" once 5 times a day in prayer not two times as I mentioned. Of course Death to Israel is still mentioned regularly.
The capacity to inspect nuclear sites in Iran without forewarning is not included in this deal & should have been. It was being negotiated in the last few weeks but was not part of the final deal.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Wed Jul 15, 2015 9:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Dangles wrote: | | So why does Iran have to give up nukes when America and Israel don't? |
Because Iran has regularly threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", Israel has never made any such threats to any member of the UN.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ re "a poster boy for appeasement", Chamberlain was a decent man who sought desperately to avoid war. After the unthinkable slaughter of WW1, it was a reasonable gamble. Did it sell out the Czechs ? Yes. Did the gamble fail ? Yes, but hindsight is 20/20. Would standing up to Hitler in 1938 over the Sudetenland have made any difference ? Probably yes, in that it might have brought the war forward, before the rearmament of the RAF had reached a level that made the Battle of Britain (and thus the course of the entire war) a British victory.
Is it relevant to Iran ? No idea.... !
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Mugwump wrote: | ^ re "a poster boy for appeasement", Chamberlain was a decent man who sought desperately to avoid war. After the unthinkable slaughter of WW1, it was a reasonable gamble. Did it sell out the Czechs ? Yes. Did the gamble fail ? Yes, but hindsight is 20/20. Would standing up to Hitler in 1938 over the Sudetenland have made any difference ? Probably yes, in that it might have brought the war forward, before the rearmament of the RAF had reached a level that made the Battle of Britain (and thus the course of the entire war) a British victory.
Is it relevant to Iran ? No idea.... ! |
Pretty sure Ptiddy could find a link, most likely involving Abbott or a Bush. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Dangles wrote: | | So why does Iran have to give up nukes when America and Israel don't? |
Because Iran has regularly threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", Israel has never made any such threats to any member of the UN. |
So that's it? But what about America's aggression? What gives them the moral authority to demand that Iran scraps their nuclear program? |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | ^ re "a poster boy for appeasement", Chamberlain was a decent man who sought desperately to avoid war. After the unthinkable slaughter of WW1, it was a reasonable gamble. Did it sell out the Czechs ? Yes. Did the gamble fail ? Yes, but hindsight is 20/20. Would standing up to Hitler in 1938 over the Sudetenland have made any difference ? Probably yes, in that it might have brought the war forward, before the rearmament of the RAF had reached a level that made the Battle of Britain (and thus the course of the entire European war) a British victory.
Is it relevant to Iran ? No idea.... ! |
Pretty sure Ptiddy could find a link, most likely involving Abbott or a Bush. |
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:18 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Dangles wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Dangles wrote: | | So why does Iran have to give up nukes when America and Israel don't? |
Because Iran has regularly threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", Israel has never made any such threats to any member of the UN. |
So that's it? But what about America's aggression? What gives them the moral authority to demand that Iran scraps their nuclear program? |
Let me see, in the case of an either or do I back the US or Iran in real politik
Thinking time over, I'm going the US.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Dangles wrote: | | So why does Iran have to give up nukes when America and Israel don't? |
Because Iran has regularly threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", Israel has never made any such threats to any member of the UN. |
You're right - Israel and the US aren't big on threatening people with bombing. They just do it.
I don't want to make this thread about Israel - although it is kind of the elephant in the room given that Iran's nuclear build-up is either aimed at Israel or a protection against Israel's own nuclear capacity, depending on your standpoint - but I don't think that nonsense should be allowed to stand.
There is no justification for arguing that Israel and the US should be allowed nukes but Iran shouldn't. Even if we were trying to assert some kind of moral heirarchy, both countries would fail so abysmally that it would be a moot point. Nevertheless, any reduction in nuclear tensions anywhere is a good thing, and so this agreement should be celebrated, even if you feel it didn't go far enough.
Oh, and Chamberlain is an obvious invocation of Godwin's Law, unless you were talking about his economic policies. I'm all in favour of Nazi analogies where relevant, but bringing up Neville's (as Mugwump points out, perhaps unfairly maligned) name in this context is pure Fox News.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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As for the "death to America/Israel" stuff, it's precisely that kind of extremism (and its American/Israeli mirror image on Fox News and the Israeli right) that makes reforms like this so damn hard. That Obama (a moderate progressive) and Rouhani (an all-but-secular intellectual) even got elected is a miracle, and still, to even get the US and Iran talking was a Herculean effort given the power of the "we don't negotiate with terrorists/imperialists" lobbies (thanks ISIS!). Thankfully, Obama and Rouhani understand that in this world you have to be willing to negotiate.
And like a rolling ball, successful negotiation strengthens moderates and weakens the credibility of warmongers. If you have an interest in preventing the next senseless massacre, then there are few more important things to strive for.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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This article, if statistically accurate, is promising. As ever, it's offset by the loons trying to undermine human freedom, but I still think it's essential to keep testing hope without falling for the old either/or.
Test it, encourage it, but don't abandon it, as with Iraq and Afghanistan and the post-war Arab Spring. It's a moral imperative to maintain a purposeful middle course as part of testing the waters.
Two clear conditions for anything like this in my mind:
1. It is a purposeful, constrained test with the sole objective of giving change an opportunity to take root, as is the permanent ethical responsibility of greater power.
2. It is accompanied by a commensurate unlocking of decentralised economic forces through the shrinking of reliance on the oil economy or it will be for nought. I shake my head at the complete lack of recognition this basic, fundamental socioeconomic fact receives. If that doesn't happen, the region will ever be relying on benevolent dictators, and outside interference.
| The Guardian, hopefully to be believed on this but who knows how accurate such pop reports are wrote: | The reactions of Tehranis from sundry walks of life who swarmed through the streets of the capital to celebrate the nuclear deal in recent days suggest that the Iranian public has experienced a psychological turning point. While uncertainties remain over the future of the economy as well as regional security, happiness is returning to a population that has been forced to withdraw from public space for nearly a decade. After years of domestic political pressure and material strife, Iranians see the Vienna accords as a paradigm shift that will end their countrys pariah status.
This deal will benefit our children, said child psychologist Mahshid, 40, who participated in this weeks celebrations in Valiasr Square with his 6-year-old son. Theyre the ones who can experience life without daily problems and headaches. Perhaps they can escape the pain weve had in the past 10-20 years. Maybe they will never understand what its like to live under the shadow of war.
Before the public street celebrations on Tuesday, many Iranians spent hours glued to their televisions listening to the speeches of presidents Hassan Rouhani and Barack Obama. Suddenly we saw Barack Obama on the Islamic republic television station in a live broadcast, said Mahin, a 58-year-old retired teacher. Just imagine Iran broadcasting a live speech by the president of the Great Satan. Hes a heroHe believes that having sophisticated weapons is no reason to attack countries and ruin peoples lives like they did in Iraq and Afghanistan. |
http://www.theguardian.com/world/iran-blog/2015/jul/16/iran-judiciary-warning-nuclear-deal-celebrations
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| This could almost be as good as Clinton's nuclear deal with North Korea. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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John Spooner in The Age 18/07/2015
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I do not understand. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Dangles wrote: | | So why does Iran have to give up nukes when America and Israel don't? |
Because Iran has regularly threatened to "wipe Israel off the map", Israel has never made any such threats to any member of the UN. |
........
Oh, and Chamberlain is an obvious invocation of Godwin's Law, unless you were talking about his economic policies. I'm all in favour of Nazi analogies where relevant, but bringing up Neville's (as Mugwump points out, perhaps unfairly maligned) name in this context is pure Fox News. |
From wiki: Godwin's Law (or Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies)
It is a misattribution to say this was Godwin's Law. Granted, it might be his mother's law or someone known to Godwin but Godwin's law it ain't.
With respect to Mugwumps contribution: I'm sure Neville was a lovely man. The road to hell is paved with honourable intentions I think my father once told me
Like I said before this has nuffink to do with Nazi's unless you're choosing to be a literalist with a "concrete" use of the metaphor. To explain again, it is about making a colossal miscalculation "peace in our time" - to that extent it could be Atilla the Hun, Ayatollah the Crazy or Bronwyn the Bishop. In other words : nil, nada, relationship to nazis (even though it derived from there) - the more relevant point here is appeasement & a mistaken sense of premature self congratulations being the nub of the issue. It's what "it" represents.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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