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PRISON SMOKING BAN

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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 4:34 am
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It's 3am David. PUT THAT KEYBOARD DOWN AND STEP AWAY FROM THE BABY!


It strikes me that prison officers are entitled to a healthy workplace, and also that a long drawn-out introduction of the ban would be much worse than just getting it over and done with. And quite possibly, the threat of (say) two years without a smoke makes a better deterrent than three years with 20 a day. (Seriously: if you smoke, the thought of not being able to have one is serious stuff: it gets you attention in ways that most things don't.)

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:52 am
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Careful for what you wish for. Blind Freddy could see it was going to cause an issue. What we will have ongoing angst with Prisoners being beaten down when they rebel and in the end force and physical intimidation will work. Now the prisoners who have been treated like animals will be expected to be normal citizens when released. Good Luck with that, it's never worked anywhere and it won't work now.

Yes we will have "they are Prisoners, they have no rights" and "prisoner officers need a smoke free environment". All is fine in a perfect world, the prison system is far from perfect. What is laughable is they can't have smokes but all the other drugs they get in there are fine.

I'm a non smoker by the way.
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Lazza 



Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:23 am
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I reckon they all need to learn great negotiation skills and the lost art of compromising. Have a small outdoor area away from buildings (far away from the restricted areas where smoking is already banned in all public buildings now) which the non smoking Prison guards and the non smoking prisoners can avoid. So no passive smoking issue. The vast majority of prisoners are not long termers and won't really get a health benefit from such a program if they choose to smoke once back outside. This to me is a simple solution and a win-win situation for everyone concerned.
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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 12:01 pm
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One thing I should have twigged to and didn't is that this also applies to prisoners on remand - i.e., to people who are, pending trial not guilty of anything. This is a disgrace. Sure, many, probably most, of these prisoners will go to trial and be found guilty, but the state has no right whatever to impose a smoking ban on these people unless and until they are found guilty before a judge at a fair trial. None.

(If you are, say, in the remand centre briefly because you are doing time for something already and have sent down from (say) Ararat Goal to be closer to the place where your trial for some other offence will be held, that's different. But if you are simply awaiting trial and have not yet had your day in court then this ban is not on.)

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 3:01 pm
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Tannin wrote:
One thing I should have twigged to and didn't is that this also applies to prisoners on remand - i.e., to people who are, pending trial not guilty of anything. This is a disgrace. Sure, many, probably most, of these prisoners will go to trial and be found guilty, but the state has no right whatever to impose a smoking ban on these people unless and until they are found guilty before a judge at a fair trial. None.

(If you are, say, in the remand centre briefly because you are doing time for something already and have sent down from (say) Ararat Goal to be closer to the place where your trial for some other offence will be held, that's different. But if you are simply awaiting trial and have not yet had your day in court then this ban is not on.)


I agree, but why should being convicted change anything? Obviously we accept that imprisonment entails certain deprivations of liberties, but why is this particularly deprivation legitimate?

Perhaps I've been watching too many olde-time prison movies, but I do get the impression that smoking is all prisoners have to keep them sane sometimes. To take them away seems a bit cruel and unnecessary. As Lazza says, surely there could have been some kind of compromise.

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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 6:57 pm
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Nah, don't be silly David, plenty of drugs to keep em happy!
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 7:17 pm
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Geezus, this isn't even worthy of debate, of course the government can decide to stop smoking in prisons. Rolling Eyes

Prison staff have as much right to a smoke free work environment as everyone else. You can't smoke in restaurants, pubs, bars of cafes any more, you can't smoke at work any more, you can't smoke within 4 metres of a government building in Victoria anymore, why on gods earth would anyone logically think that prisoners deserve an exemption?

They are provided with the option of nicotine replacement treatment, so that helps deal with the chemical addiction part, the rest is psychological. Get over it.

I have a sneaking bit of sympathy for those on remand waiting for trial but only a sneaking bit. If having to give up smoking is the worse part of being in prison, something is NQR.

So this little tanty demonstration will just make sure they get zero sympathy from the officials. After a week or so of cold turkey the chemical part is gone, so they can just get over it.

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:24 am
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$10 million cost so far, it will turn out cheaper to build smoking prisons. Shocked
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 10:47 am
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stui magpie wrote:
Prison staff have as much right to a smoke free work environment as everyone else. You can't smoke in restaurants, pubs, bars of cafes any more, you can't smoke at work any more, you can't smoke within 4 metres of a government building in Victoria anymore, why on gods earth would anyone logically think that prisoners deserve an exemption?


Because people who go to restaurants, pubs, bars and cafes still have the right to smoke elsewhere if they like. This ban is not a ban on smoking in a certain place, it's a ban on people being able to smoke full stop. That makes it fundamentally different from the examples you mention.

I understand that this isn't going to be a popular line of argument because we all know smoking is unhealthy and the rights of prisoners – particularly on a matter as minor as this – generally aren't high on most people's agendas. All the same, I don't like unjustified exercises in authoritarianism, and this kind of has that look about it.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:43 pm
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David wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Prison staff have as much right to a smoke free work environment as everyone else. You can't smoke in restaurants, pubs, bars of cafes any more, you can't smoke at work any more, you can't smoke within 4 metres of a government building in Victoria anymore, why on gods earth would anyone logically think that prisoners deserve an exemption?


Because people who go to restaurants, pubs, bars and cafes still have the right to smoke elsewhere if they like. This ban is not a ban on smoking in a certain place, it's a ban on people being able to smoke full stop. That makes it fundamentally different from the examples you mention.

I understand that this isn't going to be a popular line of argument because we all know smoking is unhealthy and the rights of prisoners – particularly on a matter as minor as this – generally aren't high on most people's agendas. All the same, I don't like unjustified exercises in authoritarianism, and this kind of has that look about it.
so your happy to foot the bill for the cancers and other diseases from 2nd smoke for the officers, other prisoners, etc, and also, to look after the families?
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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:48 pm
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David wrote:
Tannin wrote:
One thing I should have twigged to and didn't is that this also applies to prisoners on remand - i.e., to people who are, pending trial not guilty of anything. This is a disgrace. Sure, many, probably most, of these prisoners will go to trial and be found guilty, but the state has no right whatever to impose a smoking ban on these people unless and until they are found guilty before a judge at a fair trial. None.

(If you are, say, in the remand centre briefly because you are doing time for something already and have sent down from (say) Ararat Goal to be closer to the place where your trial for some other offence will be held, that's different. But if you are simply awaiting trial and have not yet had your day in court then this ban is not on.)


I agree, but why should being convicted change anything? Obviously we accept that imprisonment entails certain deprivations of liberties, but why is this particularly deprivation legitimate?

Perhaps I've been watching too many olde-time prison movies, but I do get the impression that smoking is all prisoners have to keep them sane sometimes. To take them away seems a bit cruel and unnecessary. As Lazza says, surely there could have been some kind of compromise.


Yes you've been watching too many old movies. They have TVs. Some have pcs, but not full internet for obvious reasons. They have a gym full of lovely toys than can kill each other with. $£$%^%%$ cruel and unnecessary! You mean like Jack the Ripper? Crying any tears over Carl Williams?

**** it give em patches!

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:00 pm
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I heard some public official (perhaps a Premier, perhaps someone else - I wasn't paying much attention) on the radio today describe what happened at the facility as "wanton criminal conduct". I don't think there was any intentional humour.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:33 pm
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David wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
Prison staff have as much right to a smoke free work environment as everyone else. You can't smoke in restaurants, pubs, bars of cafes any more, you can't smoke at work any more, you can't smoke within 4 metres of a government building in Victoria anymore, why on gods earth would anyone logically think that prisoners deserve an exemption?


Because people who go to restaurants, pubs, bars and cafes still have the right to smoke elsewhere if they like. This ban is not a ban on smoking in a certain place, it's a ban on people being able to smoke full stop. That makes it fundamentally different from the examples you mention.

I understand that this isn't going to be a popular line of argument because we all know smoking is unhealthy and the rights of prisoners – particularly on a matter as minor as this – generally aren't high on most people's agendas. All the same, I don't like unjustified exercises in authoritarianism, and this kind of has that look about it.


It is justified, you just don't agree with the justification. that's different.

And dare I say it, Prisoners rights are a lot lower on most people's agendas than far more needy cases who didn't commit crimes sufficient to get themselves locked up.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:01 pm
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think positive wrote:
so your happy to foot the bill for the cancers and other diseases from 2nd smoke for the officers, other prisoners, etc, and also, to look after the families?


Is that really the issue here? Admittedly, I haven't had time to read any articles on this – just been listening to the radio while ferrying boxes from Coburg to Hampton – but I haven't yet heard anything about a specific concern for prison guards' welfare.

Would it have been so bad to allow smoking in outdoor, or designated areas?

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 9:16 pm
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Geezus David. Rolling Eyes

The government puts a lot of our money into anti smoking efforts. It's legal but highly discouraged because of the health effects.

So the state government bans smoking in all sorts of places where the average citizen would like to have a smoke.

Prisoners, as you noted, have been deprived of liberty. That happened for a reason, they committed a crime and were sent to prison. So they can't walk down the street to buy smokes, how do they get them?

If they're going to get them, the government basically has to supply them. It may be by proxy but it's the government providing inmates with smokes when pensioners can't afford them and people in hospital beds aren't allowed to have them. You probably don't see that as a disconnect but I guarantee that the people in the relevant government department and health lobby groups do.

You think that government officials sit down thinking "how can we screw over some prisoners today"? The way it happens is that the government is lobbied about why the hell are they providing cigarettes to prison inmates and the question is "give me good reason why we should keep giving them cigarettes", and there isn't one.

There's no good reasons why they should keep providing smokes and lots of good reasons why they should stop it.

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