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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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The coaching today was excellent. We are a very well drilled side and we controlled general play in this game. The Hawks had much more trouble moving the ball from defense than we did. That's a brilliant effort against the two time reigning champs. Well done Bucks and boys.
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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IF ONLY Bucks could teach our guys too kick straight for goal, if only. Someone has too. !
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | The coaching today was excellent. We are a very well drilled side and we controlled general play in this game. The Hawks had much more trouble moving the ball from defense than we did. That's a brilliant effort against the two time reigning champs. Well done Bucks and boys. |
I don't agree with this. Yes we got close. But hawks opened us up when it mattered. They had no tall fwds. We should have won by 6 goals (at least) Yes goal kicking killed us in 2nd half. But we went nuts with hand pass in the 1st half.
Look at the 3rd. There were times when we chipped it around by foot a while to be smart and be more certain and slow the game down. And it worked. I'm not talking about roosting every possesion 60 meters down the line. But FFS this kamikaze handpass ins def 50 has to to be curtailed. |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| A telling moment for me was in the first quarter when Cloke ran Lake up the ground and Clarkson had to make the switch. Buckley wouldn't have done that a couple of years ago. He's now a more proactive coach than a reactive coach and it's showing in our improvement across all areas. Buckley's coaching almost got us across the line tonight. It's just critical mistakes by players at certain times that is costing us. Take those mistakes out and we win the game. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | AN_Inkling wrote: | | The coaching today was excellent. We are a very well drilled side and we controlled general play in this game. The Hawks had much more trouble moving the ball from defense than we did. That's a brilliant effort against the two time reigning champs. Well done Bucks and boys. |
I don't agree with this. Yes we got close. But hawks opened us up when it mattered. They had no tall fwds. We should have won by 6 goals (at least) Yes goal kicking killed us in 2nd half. But we went nuts with hand pass in the 1st half.
Look at the 3rd. There were times when we chipped it around by foot a while to be smart and be more certain and slow the game down. And it worked. I'm not talking about roosting every possesion 60 meters down the line. But FFS this kamikaze handpass ins def 50 has to to be curtailed. |
No, the game plan stood up tremendously well, tonight. If the players could have executed properly, the 'Pies would have won by around 5 goals. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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Ok lets ignore the basic defensive errors and structure/game plan and stick to, its the execution of the players thats at fault... Lets say we kick the goals. Are you saying hawks wouldn't have stood up at the centre bounce and answered?
With better defensive pressure inside def 50 and structural decisions (Ben Hart) in 2nd qtr, as well as kicking the ball once in a while outta def 50, we go in to half time 3 goals up. Watch the tape. I mean Langdon gets a free. Holding the ball. 15 out. He runs off the line and hand passes??? Puts everyone under pressure. Turnover on centre wing and a hawks goal. There were 2 other times where defence had a chance to use a clearing kick. They handpassed. It rebounded and hawks goal. Thats a mindset and defensive coaching.
The fwd line was woeful and it was lappins fault. The backline makes ordinary decisions but its never Ben Harts fault??? |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | Ok lets ignore the basic defensive errors and structure/game plan and stick to, its the execution of the players thats at fault... Lets say we kick the goals. Are you saying hawks wouldn't have stood up at the centre bounce and answered?
With better defensive pressure inside def 50 and structural decisions (Ben Hart) in 2nd qtr, as well as kicking the ball once in a while outta def 50, we go in to half time 3 goals up. Watch the tape. I mean Langdon gets a free. Holding the ball. 15 out. He runs off the line and hand passes??? Puts everyone under pressure. Turnover on centre wing and a hawks goal. There were 2 other times where defence had a chance to use a clearing kick. They handpassed. It rebounded and hawks goal. Thats a mindset and defensive coaching.
The fwd line was woeful and it was lappins fault. The backline makes ordinary decisions but its never Ben Harts fault??? |
You're talking about individual player errors made under pressure. Those aren't the fault of the defensive coach. Compare the defensive stats against all the other clubs and you'll find that Collingwood is in the top four or five clubs and that makes Ben Hart one of the the best defensive coaches in the AFL. |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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Ohh ffs we won just about every stat and lost the game = ineffective football system.
Utilizing ones strengths is the key to success in any field, it is obvious that we don't. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | Ok lets ignore the basic defensive errors and structure/game plan and stick to, its the execution of the players thats at fault... Lets say we kick the goals. Are you saying hawks wouldn't have stood up at the centre bounce and answered?
With better defensive pressure inside def 50 and structural decisions (Ben Hart) in 2nd qtr, as well as kicking the ball once in a while outta def 50, we go in to half time 3 goals up. Watch the tape. I mean Langdon gets a free. Holding the ball. 15 out. He runs off the line and hand passes??? Puts everyone under pressure. Turnover on centre wing and a hawks goal. There were 2 other times where defence had a chance to use a clearing kick. They handpassed. It rebounded and hawks goal. Thats a mindset and defensive coaching.
The fwd line was woeful and it was lappins fault. The backline makes ordinary decisions but its never Ben Harts fault??? |
You're talking about individual player errors made under pressure. Those aren't the fault of the defensive coach. Compare the defensive stats against all the other clubs and you'll find that Collingwood is in the top four or five clubs and that makes Ben Hart one of the the best defensive coaches in the AFL. |
No I'm talking about a "defensive mindset". The attitude/mindset is to handpass first out of defense. It has been progressivy since 2012. We over use it. Its pretty obvious. My mates say the same thing (they support other clubs)... FFS my girlfriend who loves rugby, watches thebpies probably 6-8 times a year and sits down and watches a Pies game and says "so they are still hand passing in defence like that? Why do they put themselves under pressure like that? They don't know how to balance it like the swans do"...
Thats the comments of a casual observer and its actually spot on.
Not only that, but our defensive structures ins 50 at stopages have killed us for years and again this last two weeks. I'd rather we fix coast to coast goals from points, easy goals from stoppages ins def 50 and easy goals when we get one out in defense than just sack lappin and blame him for the fwd line.
If we gonna hold lappin to account for the fwd line then by god Hart has some explaining to do compared to the work the defensive coaches did in 2010 with such young blokes as brown, reid and toovey & co. |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | Ok lets ignore the basic defensive errors and structure/game plan and stick to, its the execution of the players thats at fault... Lets say we kick the goals. Are you saying hawks wouldn't have stood up at the centre bounce and answered?
With better defensive pressure inside def 50 and structural decisions (Ben Hart) in 2nd qtr, as well as kicking the ball once in a while outta def 50, we go in to half time 3 goals up. Watch the tape. I mean Langdon gets a free. Holding the ball. 15 out. He runs off the line and hand passes??? Puts everyone under pressure. Turnover on centre wing and a hawks goal. There were 2 other times where defence had a chance to use a clearing kick. They handpassed. It rebounded and hawks goal. Thats a mindset and defensive coaching.
The fwd line was woeful and it was lappins fault. The backline makes ordinary decisions but its never Ben Harts fault??? |
Wow! So it's not just Collingwood getting it wrong according to you, but it's the game plans of all 18 clubs who all try to execute exactly the same type of plays. Becoming clearer by your every post. Thanks for enlightening us. |
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Krakouer Magic
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
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| jackcass wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | Ok lets ignore the basic defensive errors and structure/game plan and stick to, its the execution of the players thats at fault... Lets say we kick the goals. Are you saying hawks wouldn't have stood up at the centre bounce and answered?
With better defensive pressure inside def 50 and structural decisions (Ben Hart) in 2nd qtr, as well as kicking the ball once in a while outta def 50, we go in to half time 3 goals up. Watch the tape. I mean Langdon gets a free. Holding the ball. 15 out. He runs off the line and hand passes??? Puts everyone under pressure. Turnover on centre wing and a hawks goal. There were 2 other times where defence had a chance to use a clearing kick. They handpassed. It rebounded and hawks goal. Thats a mindset and defensive coaching.
The fwd line was woeful and it was lappins fault. The backline makes ordinary decisions but its never Ben Harts fault??? |
Wow! So it's not just Collingwood getting it wrong according to you, but it's the game plans of all 18 clubs who all try to execute exactly the same type of plays. Becoming clearer by your every post. Thanks for enlightening us. |
I don't follow you? There arn't 17 other clubs using the exactly same gameplan if that's what you are implying. I don't see other good teams make the same basic defensive errors over the past 3 years that we do.
GWS move it from back pocket in a very different way than we do. They go to flanks then hit the corner of centre square. From there they run and gun up the corridor. Completely different style to how we play. But i guess you already knew that. I watch plenty of footy. I saw how disfunctional our fwd line was for years (but that was all lappins fault).. I've seen how disfunctional our def one on one and at stoppages (but thats not harts faults???)..
Yes you need to handpass at times out of defence, but you need to kick it once in a while too (im not talking about 65 metre torps to packs like its 1972). We chipped it around in the 3rd at times quite well. Our balance is not good enough when we are put under pressure. When teams pressure our def we handpass to much. Some times it works. Most often it doesnt. Nothing wrong with a short kick to a bloke 20 metres away to take the pressure off and regroup. We just haven't got the balance right. |
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qldmagpie67
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
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| Krakouer Magic wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | Ok lets ignore the basic defensive errors and structure/game plan and stick to, its the execution of the players thats at fault... Lets say we kick the goals. Are you saying hawks wouldn't have stood up at the centre bounce and answered?
With better defensive pressure inside def 50 and structural decisions (Ben Hart) in 2nd qtr, as well as kicking the ball once in a while outta def 50, we go in to half time 3 goals up. Watch the tape. I mean Langdon gets a free. Holding the ball. 15 out. He runs off the line and hand passes??? Puts everyone under pressure. Turnover on centre wing and a hawks goal. There were 2 other times where defence had a chance to use a clearing kick. They handpassed. It rebounded and hawks goal. Thats a mindset and defensive coaching.
The fwd line was woeful and it was lappins fault. The backline makes ordinary decisions but its never Ben Harts fault??? |
Wow! So it's not just Collingwood getting it wrong according to you, but it's the game plans of all 18 clubs who all try to execute exactly the same type of plays. Becoming clearer by your every post. Thanks for enlightening us. |
I don't follow you? There arn't 17 other clubs using the exactly same gameplan if that's what you are implying. I don't see other good teams make the same basic defensive errors over the past 3 years that we do.
GWS move it from back pocket in a very different way than we do. They go to flanks then hit the corner of centre square. From there they run and gun up the corridor. Completely different style to how we play. But i guess you already knew that. I watch plenty of footy. I saw how disfunctional our fwd line was for years (but that was all lappins fault).. I've seen how disfunctional our def one on one and at stoppages (but thats not harts faults???)..
Yes you need to handpass at times out of defence, but you need to kick it once in a while too (im not talking about 65 metre torps to packs like its 1972). We chipped it around in the 3rd at times quite well. Our balance is not good enough when we are put under pressure. When teams pressure our def we handpass to much. Some times it works. Most often it doesnt. Nothing wrong with a short kick to a bloke 20 metres away to take the pressure off and regroup. We just haven't got the balance right. |
It's interesting debate Krak but what has been the Hawks success been built on?
Watch the game again and tell me in the 3rd when they were under the pump from our continual forward entries what they did coming out of defence ? A string of 9 short quick hand passes until someone got clear then they went bang into the middle. Next time 5 hand passes a quick switch by the free man and bang goal again.
They control the ball by hand and work for each other. The difference between us and them is around 100+ games per player on ave I would suspect.
I understand your sentiments on defensive mindset but I think there's more too it.
I think bucks wants to use the short quick hand ball to find a Oxley or Langdon free and then use there foot skills to penetrate
Watching how Cloke is up on the wing or nearing the defensive 50 so often giving his team mates a option and time to get running forward shows bucks wants out attack to start deep and be a full ground effort.
Our skills are the weak point at the present but are far better than 12 months ago |
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E
Joined: 05 May 2010
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| qldmagpie67 wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Krakouer Magic wrote: | Ok lets ignore the basic defensive errors and structure/game plan and stick to, its the execution of the players thats at fault... Lets say we kick the goals. Are you saying hawks wouldn't have stood up at the centre bounce and answered?
With better defensive pressure inside def 50 and structural decisions (Ben Hart) in 2nd qtr, as well as kicking the ball once in a while outta def 50, we go in to half time 3 goals up. Watch the tape. I mean Langdon gets a free. Holding the ball. 15 out. He runs off the line and hand passes??? Puts everyone under pressure. Turnover on centre wing and a hawks goal. There were 2 other times where defence had a chance to use a clearing kick. They handpassed. It rebounded and hawks goal. Thats a mindset and defensive coaching.
The fwd line was woeful and it was lappins fault. The backline makes ordinary decisions but its never Ben Harts fault??? |
Wow! So it's not just Collingwood getting it wrong according to you, but it's the game plans of all 18 clubs who all try to execute exactly the same type of plays. Becoming clearer by your every post. Thanks for enlightening us. |
I don't follow you? There arn't 17 other clubs using the exactly same gameplan if that's what you are implying. I don't see other good teams make the same basic defensive errors over the past 3 years that we do.
GWS move it from back pocket in a very different way than we do. They go to flanks then hit the corner of centre square. From there they run and gun up the corridor. Completely different style to how we play. But i guess you already knew that. I watch plenty of footy. I saw how disfunctional our fwd line was for years (but that was all lappins fault).. I've seen how disfunctional our def one on one and at stoppages (but thats not harts faults???)..
Yes you need to handpass at times out of defence, but you need to kick it once in a while too (im not talking about 65 metre torps to packs like its 1972). We chipped it around in the 3rd at times quite well. Our balance is not good enough when we are put under pressure. When teams pressure our def we handpass to much. Some times it works. Most often it doesnt. Nothing wrong with a short kick to a bloke 20 metres away to take the pressure off and regroup. We just haven't got the balance right. |
It's interesting debate Krak but what has been the Hawks success been built on?
Watch the game again and tell me in the 3rd when they were under the pump from our continual forward entries what they did coming out of defence ? A string of 9 short quick hand passes until someone got clear then they went bang into the middle. Next time 5 hand passes a quick switch by the free man and bang goal again.
They control the ball by hand and work for each other. The difference between us and them is around 100+ games per player on ave I would suspect.
I understand your sentiments on defensive mindset but I think there's more too it.
I think bucks wants to use the short quick hand ball to find a Oxley or Langdon free and then use there foot skills to penetrate
Watching how Cloke is up on the wing or nearing the defensive 50 so often giving his team mates a option and time to get running forward shows bucks wants out attack to start deep and be a full ground effort.
Our skills are the weak point at the present but are far better than 12 months ago |
They are not just Far better. They are far far, far, far better than they were 12 months ago and it looks like we are continuing to improve.
More importantly, this style of play is damaging, effective and capable of multiple premierships!!!
About 4 or 5 weeks ago I observed that the game plan that we lamented last year was finally being learnt and was starting to show effectiveness. If you aren't convinced yet by the way it held up pretty damn well against arguably the 2 best teams in the comp, you are either simply being a trouble maker, or you are, indeed a brick head!
With a group of kids (including 2 first gamers who clearly need a lot more senior football before we see anything like their best footy) we are looking really good. I can see us getting better and better and better. The potential is mouth watering.
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Ohhh, the Premiership's a cakewalk ....... |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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i am not sure how any supporter can be disappointed with where this team is at considering how far back it has come from. that we run two of the comp's leading teams to within 2 goals is a terrific effort. sure we could and should have won both. it was not an honourable loss from a team that is playing above itself. the upside has been laid out fair and square for all to see. if we were having the development year many have said we are having i doubt we'd have got so close. young players are going to have their inconsistencies but we were able to cover it for the most part. that we played two debutants and got little return from one of them speaks volumes for the systems in place. we won all the key stats counts and let ourselves down with the goal kicking. hawthorn's experience got them over the line. it wasn't their young brigade either that did this either.
we're well and truly on our way. toot toot.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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