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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | | FWIW I'm sure there would be some amazing homosexual parents and some real shockers but the evidence I've seen points to negative outcomes and it would be remiss of a society not to take the into account when social engineering. At the very least there needs to be more and more comprehensive, unbiased studies. |
Who on earth is talking about social engineering? 
There's certainly room for studies in this area, but for this research to be made into some kind of urgent priority—after all, the elephant in the room here is the question of whether or not same-sex couples should be prohibited from having children—you would have to have good reason to believe that there are specific things about same-sex couples which tend to make them unsuitable to be parents.
And that position, I'm sorry to say, probably does require some degree of anti-gay prejudice.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| The least there needs to be more and more comprehensive unbiased studies is where it's at. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Article on single parents citing studies.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/07/single_motherhood_worse_for_children_.html
Seriously, this stuff is easy to find and seeing as I've already researched and formed an opinion, I don't see the need to spoonfeed others. If you're interested you'll follow the yellow brick road and make your own conclusions. I'm not on a government committee, a think tank or making policy, my opinions have about as much effect on outcomes as a fart does on climate change. I also don't feel the need to brow beat people who have already made upm their mind absent any real thought, reason or study beyond the politically correct orthodoxy they are too afraid to challenge or the cognitive dissonance that such evidence causes. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | | FWIW I'm sure there would be some amazing homosexual parents and some real shockers but the evidence I've seen points to negative outcomes and it would be remiss of a society not to take the into account when social engineering. At the very least there needs to be more and more comprehensive, unbiased studies. |
Who on earth is talking about social engineering?
There's certainly room for studies in this area, but for this research to be made into some kind of urgent priority—after all, the elephant in the room here is the question of whether or not same-sex couples should be prohibited from having children—you would have to have good reason to believe that there are specific things about same-sex couples which tend to make them unsuitable to be parents.
And that position, I'm sorry to say, probably does require some degree of anti-gay prejudice. |
You don't see challenging orthodoxy in order to change social structures as social engineering? Is it all just a random mix of feel good change for changes sake? I'm not sure which is more terrifying. If a society is going to radically alter its fabric, be it family structure, economics, child rearing, political framework etc then it sure as hell better be considering the consequences. I wonder if progressives ever think long term when jumping on the next egalitarian band wagon that comes along. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Wokko wrote: |
Seriously, this stuff is easy to find and seeing as I've already researched and formed an opinion, I don't see the need to spoonfeed others. If you're interested you'll follow the yellow brick road and make your own conclusions. I'm not on a government committee, a think tank or making policy, my opinions have about as much effect on outcomes as a fart does on climate change. I also don't feel the need to brow beat people who have already made upm their mind absent any real thought, reason or study beyond the politically correct orthodoxy they are too afraid to challenge or the cognitive dissonance that such evidence causes. |
This bit got me cheering, not about this subject, just cheering
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | Article on single parents citing studies.
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/07/single_motherhood_worse_for_children_.html
Seriously, this stuff is easy to find and seeing as I've already researched and formed an opinion, I don't see the need to spoonfeed others. If you're interested you'll follow the yellow brick road and make your own conclusions. I'm not on a government committee, a think tank or making policy, my opinions have about as much effect on outcomes as a fart does on climate change. I also don't feel the need to brow beat people who have already made upm their mind absent any real thought, reason or study beyond the politically correct orthodoxy they are too afraid to challenge or the cognitive dissonance that such evidence causes. |
No, this is quite a new and specialised topic, and you have set yourself up as a person who feels qualified to offer a view on it, impacting the lives and wellbeing of others by doing so. The onus is on you to justify your public comments, not avoid accountability for them.
And if you don't know much about the area at all, why on earth would you insist on impacting the lives of those families so arbitrarily?
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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I'm impacting them about as much as pissing in the ocean. That's the effect of an opinion on the internet. You not liking my conclusion doesn't invalidate my studied, considered and thought out opinion, nor the many studies backing me up, at least a few you could have followed from links in articles I did provide.
Aside from that, I'm a child of a single mother, one who worked hard and tried her best but purely anecdotally, I would assert that I was negatively impacted by that upbringing. I make no assertions on what to do about any of these conclusions, but ignoring them because they're unpleasant is incredibly irresponsible. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Sorry, I read that Slate article on the impact of "the decline in marriage among poor and working-class Americans", and I am wondering what in it made you feel justified in taking a view on gay parenting.
Without having looked at the work and data concerned, here's the rub of that article:
| Wilcox in Slate wrote: | | The retreat from marriage in America, a retreat that Roiphe seems keen to defend, has led to “diverging destinies” for children from less-educated and college-educated homes. Children from poor and working-class homes are now doubly disadvantaged by their parents’ economic meager resources and by the fact that their parents often break up. By contrast, children from more-educated and affluent homes are doubly advantaged by their parents’ substantial economic resources and by the fact that their parents usually get and stay married. |
http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/07/single_motherhood_worse_for_children_.2.html
Please elucidate 
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | | You don't see challenging orthodoxy in order to change social structures as social engineering? Is it all just a random mix of feel good change for changes sake? I'm not sure which is more terrifying. If a society is going to radically alter its fabric, be it family structure, economics, child rearing, political framework etc then it sure as hell better be considering the consequences. I wonder if progressives ever think long term when jumping on the next egalitarian band wagon that comes along. |
What society is radically altering its structure? Homosexual people throughout history didn't need the law to validate their relationships, though they certainly found it a lot harder to live out in the open in more repressive social conditions. What has happened is that these relationships have become legitimised.
If you're concerned about radical change, that happened decades ago. The sexual revolution was radical change; this is merely the cherry on the sundae.
The issue of children seems more superficially complex, but even a supposedly measured approach to that seems absurdly conservative and more than a little offensive: are we sure we're thinking of all of the consequences? Have we thought through all of the consequences of mixed race families? What about unemployed people having children? Would you be seriously game to suggest that those family structures might need a second thought, just to be sure?
I think we tend to presume as a matter of course that two people in a loving long-term relationship, whatever their background, can be decent parents. I would certainly be wary of any society pointing to certain social categories and saying "no children for you", but everything you're writing here suggests to me that you're less than enthusiastic about granting that basic right to gay couples. A strange position for a libertarian to take, I would have thought.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Fri May 29, 2015 2:54 am; edited 2 times in total |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^And, for the record, I am in full agreement with David's view on that particular aspect of such issues generally. Justifying why you are investigating one thing and not another is equally as important as the quality of your investigation itself. That is, ethically, selection requires justification to distinguish it from targeting and slander.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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The Hysteria regarding Homosexuals and children in same sex marriages. I know a male couple with children and female couple with children. At first I really struggled with the idea and now my opinion has totally changed. There is no difference whether the parents are a Hetrosexual or homesexual. No doubt people like Senator Cory Bananbrain will have something to say about it.
In saying that, the Country is stuffed and as priority this should be bottom of the pile. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | http://mrconservative.com/2013/07/21685-lesbian-couple-gives-son-hormone-blockers-says-the-child-is-transgender/ |
Really, TP? Are we just going to post every horror story we've heard about same-sex parents in this thread?
Perhaps someone could follow Skids' lead and make a tracker of them.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Hey I'm just glad I kept my I want to be a mutant ninja turtle fantasy to myself
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It's hard to know the specific details of this case—it could well be an instance of brainwashing or coercion, or it might just be a normal instance of gender dysphoria (which occurs in plenty of children with heterosexual parents, so no reason why it shouldn't in some children of homosexual parents). Either way, scientific studies have shown that it's a very real phenomenon; not just some mere childish whim that they'll eventually get over.
I'm no expert in the area of transsexuality, and there are definitely lots of interesting things to discuss, but using this as evidence of the supposed unsuitability of same-sex parents is absurd.
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