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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| Deja Vu wrote: | Is it too early to trade Witts though? I think if he continues to develop we may get more for him later - everyone wants ready made ruckmen and he's not there yet.
Could be used in a trade to get one of the talented kids out of GWS? |
What would you do if Dylan Shiel wanted to leave and the only deal GWS would do was;
Shiel for Witts and a Rd 1
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| swoop42 wrote: | Hawthorn have generally played two ruck men have they not?
For me it's pretty simple if one or both of Grundy and Witts can become a better forward performer they can play together.
At present neither have shown no where near enough consistency in that role.
When Witts was in the ruck against Geelong did Grundy rest forward often or on the bench?
I don't recall Grundy being involved in many f50 contests. |
Hawthorn do but one of only a handful.
Anyway I think we are saying the same thing. If they can both play in the same side it would be terrific but on exposed form its not looking likely. Still understandable if club want to give it more time.
My point is more that if you could get Shiel and GWS wanted Witts would you do it?
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| cityslick1 wrote: | Great analysis... I still think Goldy needs to get his possession numbers up, and is almost becoming over-rated these days - has he been in the bests for any game this year? - but as he doesnt kick many goals forward, and becuase he's more suited there, I do like him back down back.
For the 2017 side, I think there'll be more changes by that time. I doubt Swanny will still going around, and Toovey will be 30 and probably pushed out of the 22 by Langdon, Scharenberg and Ramsay.
I'm also hoping there will be a gun forward and possibly even another A grade mid to come in, but here is my current stab at it...
Goldsack Brown Ramsay/Williams
Scharenberg Frost Langdon
Seedsman Pendles Sidebottom
Broomhead Cloke Crisp
Moore Reid Elliott
Grundy Adams De Goey
Kennedy Freeman Sinclair Greenwood
emg Varcoe, Macaffer, Toovey, Marsh, Cox, Maynard |
I have had him in the 5-7th best player twice this year which isn't bad for a HB. I think its his steadiness that helps but again lets wait and see what happens vs the better sides.
Side looks good.
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| Pies2016 wrote: | Great post snoop. Very objective.
I tend to think Ben Reids fortunes will play a part as to our targets in the off season. If Reid doesn't come up, I would think that a KPP would be the focus. If he does come good, then I guess they may go after a broader range of player which may or may not include a KPP.
You would think that when sidey and greenwood come back, players like broomhead, crisp, Varcoe and Elliot will all take another step up as they revert back to more familiar roles.
As for Aish, I am yet to be convinced that he is much better than what we already have on our list. If you are going to chase an outside mid, they have to be particularly dangerous with ball in hand every time because most of these guys who get in good positions, don't pick up their opponent the other way. Guys like the Hill brothers are the types that would make a difference, Aish Im not so sure about. ( ie - we should pursue quality, not just depth )
And finally, if Kersten comes to Collingwood, Im going fishing. |
Great post.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Who else would think that when sidey and greenwood come back players like broomhead crisp Varcoe and Elliot will all take another step up as they revert back to more familiar roles ? |
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| neil wrote: | Great analysis
Cannot agree with trading Witts and keeping White and Gault a club needs at least two true ruckmen and neither Gault nor White are that.
Not sold on White and Gault has zero trade currency.
Would never trade for an elite HBF as it would cost as much as an elite mid and can just move a good mid to the HBF
Agree it depends on how Reid recovers and can he regain form. Still think he will eventually end up forward then its goodbye White. |
Again would ask the question - would you swap Witts for Shiel?
Also Suckling is a FA so won't be trading for them. Tend to agree you dont really want to trade for those types but we need an injection of skill of HB. I think Scharenberg will bring that though.
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| Snoop Dog wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | Hawthorn have generally played two ruck men have they not?
For me it's pretty simple if one or both of Grundy and Witts can become a better forward performer they can play together.
At present neither have shown no where near enough consistency in that role.
When Witts was in the ruck against Geelong did Grundy rest forward often or on the bench?
I don't recall Grundy being involved in many f50 contests. |
Hawthorn do but one of only a handful.
Anyway I think we are saying the same thing. If they can both play in the same side it would be terrific but on exposed form its not looking likely. Still understandable if club want to give it more time.
My point is more that if you could get Shiel and GWS wanted Witts would you do it? |
in a heartbeat. i'd even do the airport runs.
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| dalyc wrote: | Snoop wrote "Happy to take questions as pretty familiar with the draftees this year but think you are best to wait for the Champs to see who starts to stand out."
So, I'll ask. Based on what you think we need who would you be looking to draft if the draft was held today? |
I think we need a key tall forward personally.
Josh Schache would be one I am keen on and I do like Sam Weidemann but i want to see him vs some of the better key backs at champs and get a better read on his quickness off the mark. I have a worry he is a touch slow.
A left fielder is a kid from Warragul called Harry mcKay. He is raw but he is coming along well and ticks a lot of boxes.
If you went a key back am a fan of Sam Skinner but not sure where he would place right now (again why i like waiting for champs).
Of the mid types I am a fan of Tucker, Parsons and Parish as well. I do like Mathieson but his skills need work. Couple of kids from SA who look interesting (Burton, Nunn, Tahana) and WA has one or two as well.
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Snoop Dog wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | Hawthorn have generally played two ruck men have they not?
For me it's pretty simple if one or both of Grundy and Witts can become a better forward performer they can play together.
At present neither have shown no where near enough consistency in that role.
When Witts was in the ruck against Geelong did Grundy rest forward often or on the bench?
I don't recall Grundy being involved in many f50 contests. |
Hawthorn do but one of only a handful.
Anyway I think we are saying the same thing. If they can both play in the same side it would be terrific but on exposed form its not looking likely. Still understandable if club want to give it more time. My point is more that if you could get Shiel and GWS wanted Witts would you do it? |
The point I was really trying to make, albeit rather clumsily.
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| jackcass wrote: | Good read Snoop, hard to argue with much of it.
How do things change if as expected the sub rule goes and the cap on rotations drops? |
Not sure but it can only help the role of two good ruck prospects as teams reverted to one true ruck and then a fwd / ruck sort of set up when the rule was introduced.
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| melliot wrote: | Great stuff Snoop. Enjoyed the read and I know you know your stuff very well. So rate your opinion.
Regarding the Witts/Grundy senario, have you considered the likelihood of the sub rule being dumped in 2016 and rotations limited to say 80?
The death of two genuine rucks in a team occurred when the sub was introduced. So should the sub be killed off, 2 x1st ruck types (rather than one 1st ruck and a part timer) may work better than current circumstances. But it is critical that one or both can play forward and be very dangerous.
If they both turn out to be guns, then fitting the two could still work. And work very well. |
Thanks
Yeah in the post above I addressed that. I think the Club would be desperate to find a way for it to work but they can't hope the sub rule will change. It will also take time to figure out if it does change whether the two will work.
I guess why i put it on the table is that we have one or two deficiencies and to fix them we have to put something of value up. Hence if you wanted a polished mid like Treloar or Shiels would you be willing to part with Witts if that was the only player that GWS wanted to get the deal done.
My view is I would do it and it would probably require our Rd 1 as well. Still i would do it bc whilst I think having one of those two mids has greater benefit than waiting to see if two rucks works.
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| watt price tully wrote: | Great read & analysis Snoop. Thank-you for your hard work here. Really appreciated.
Is Still AFL material (from our 2's)? I haven't seen him but seems to snag them. Is he say a Podsiadly type pick up? |
Waiting to see how he goes but I dont think so as I think he is a bit light. He hasn't been able to bulk up. Saw him next to Gault the other day and looked a weener.
The better tall forward prospect from a state league I think is Brett Eddy who used to be with us. Was terrific last year and just back from inj now and going well.
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| Damien wrote: | Trade Witts? Not likely. We've invested a lot in him and it's starting to come to fruition. I reckon if you have 2 guns then they can both play, but It's way to early to tell if both he and Brodie can fit in the best 22.
Also it's par for the course that there will always be long term injuries.
It's fine to say guys like Caff, Shara, Reid etc are in the best 22 but they aren't available and there will always be a few in that boat so you need depth.
Jesse White is our biggest liability at present. We are dead set carrying him based on what he might do and I'd much rather see Brodie and Wittsy out there than just one of them and White. |
Agree unlikely and I am only suggesting trading Witts if you think you can get a player that you think you really need.
If you could swap Witts and Rd 1 for Shiel (and assume its the only deal you could do) would you do it? That is the context I raise it in.
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Snoop Dog
Joined: 04 Oct 2004
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| HAL wrote: | | Who else would think that when sidey and greenwood come back players like broomhead crisp Varcoe and Elliot will all take another step up as they revert back to more familiar roles ? |
I think Crisp certainly will and I suspect Elliott will as well. Varcoe needs to go fwd and stay there and Broomhead just needs games more than anything.
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lefthanded
Joined: 14 May 2015
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Great work Snoop!
Dwyer – I was very surprised to see you would be staggered if he’s still on the list next year, mainly because it’s a minimum of 3 delistings per year and this year we’ve pretty much got two already in Keeffe & Thomas so wouldn’t have expected Dwyer to be our worst. Looking through our list though and factoring in his age I could see it coming down to him & Young (age & injury counting against him) (noting that Armstrong’s only saving grace could be being on the rookie list instead of main, but this begs the question why not get rid of TA & rookie Dwyer? I could still see it being a case of getting rid of both but find it hard to justify keeping even a rookie TA ahead of a potential rookie Dwyer. You could also argue for getting rid of Dwyer & Young but I’d think it hard pressed to suggest finding someone who will offer more anytime soon in 4th round of draft so personally would keep one of them unless we trade in someone else, however to trade in quality we’d be giving up something of value ie more than a Dwyer or Young, so unless it is picks one stays for a year.
Witts – wouldn’t consider trading before end of 2016 unless we get a quality key forward in the deal as I think needs time to see how partnership with Grundy pans out and I think his value will only increase as he develops in the ruck and forward. As for your question about involving him in a trade for Shiel (if GWS specify that) I certainly wouldn’t include our first rounder. I’d actually be hesitant to even do a straight swap – simply because I think we have enough quality mids coming through and even if not quite Shiel quality they are a lot cheaper & easier to find then quality talls (which I think Witts will be). We also don’t wish to leave ourselves with Grundy as our only number one ruck option – will be a different story if Cox is AFL ready by end of 2015. Yes we will struggle a bit playing two rucks at present but I firmly believe it won’t be a problem in two or three years as more marks will stick through Witts’ improvement and improved delivery.
Best 22 in 2017 – I just don’t see Macaffer in there, happy to be proved wrong but I expect Broomy, BK, Oxley to all be ahead of him with Marsh & Witts others I’m hoping have also staked their claim and that already takes the numbers to 24. Swan is one I wouldn’t be surprised if he hangs up the boots end of 2016 but if his body holds up and we are genuine premiership chance than can equally see him going another year to finish on a high.
Witts & Marsh the only ‘key position’ players in your 8-10 emergencies. I think to cover injuries we’d need at least another of AFL standard by then. Could be Gault, Cox or someone else. I also wouldn’t want a player of Moore’s talent to be playing even as a backup ruck in the next several years, if at all, so see a chop out for Grundy (eg any of Witts, Gault, Cox to step up) as the other need for 2017.
Would love to see Freeman, Maynard & Abbott in that emergency group too, if Maynard isn’t pushing a 30 year old Toovey back to that slot or Freeman doing the same with Swan. |
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