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Terror attacks by Islamist groups

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:54 pm
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Skids wrote:
Swedish Prime Minister: We'll 'Never Go Back' to Allowing Mass Refugee Immigration

The prime minister of Sweden now says his nation will "never go back" to allowing mass immigration from terrorist nations like Syria, Libya and Iran.The U-turn comes after a Muslim terrorist, who came to the country as a refugee and sought asylum, killed four people in a truck attack. Rakhmat Akilov, a refugee from Uzbekistan, hijacked a truck and deliberately drove into pedestrians on central Stockholm's main shopping street on Friday.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/15272/swedish-prime-minister-well-never-go-back-allowing-joseph-curl


unfortunately that some need to learn the hard way, but they provide the experience and learnings for others to either follow or ignore.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:11 pm
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^ The need of some to feel simplistically virtuous triumphs easily over the deaths of strangers, Stui. If 9/11, Madrid 2004 and London 2005 were too subtle for Swedish and German politicians to grasp, then new politicians are needed in those countries. Unfortunately, it may be too late.
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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:28 am
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Skids wrote:
Swedish Prime Minister: We'll 'Never Go Back' to Allowing Mass Refugee Immigration

The prime minister of Sweden now says his nation will "never go back" to allowing mass immigration from terrorist nations like Syria, Libya and Iran.The U-turn comes after a Muslim terrorist, who came to the country as a refugee and sought asylum, killed four people in a truck attack. Rakhmat Akilov, a refugee from Uzbekistan, hijacked a truck and deliberately drove into pedestrians on central Stockholm's main shopping street on Friday.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/15272/swedish-prime-minister-well-never-go-back-allowing-joseph-curl


What a load of junk. A mixture of real quotes (the one relevant one being a reference to a policy change from 18 months ago, reported here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/sweden-asylum-seekers-refugees-policy-reversal) with misleading commentary. Some examples in bold:

Quote:
The prime minister of Sweden now says his nation will "never go back" to allowing mass immigration from terrorist nations like Syria, Libya and Iran.


Quote:
The U-turn comes after a Muslim terrorist, who came to the country as a refugee and sought asylum, killed four people in a truck attack.


As pointed out above, there has been no clear policy shift regarding refugees in the aftermath of this attack. So there has been no "u-turn". This is simply a false statement.

Quote:
Prime Minister Stefan Löfven vowed to move the country from its liberal stance


Again: since when? What does this even mean?

Quote:
He said refugees are bringing danger into Sweden. "Terrorists want us to be afraid, want us to change our behavior, want us to not live our lives normally, but that is what we're going to do. Terrorists can never defeat Sweden, never."


Blatant lie.

I don't mean to be a broken record on this, but semi-fake news sites like the Daily Wire are incredibly insidious and little more than fronts for con artists who make money off misleading gullible people.

There's plenty of decent news sources out there with left-wing, centrist and right-wing editorial views. Hell, even trash like The Herald Sun and The Daily Mail are a level above this, in that they actually have some editorial standards. Exercising some discretion in news sources would be appreciated.

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Last edited by David on Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:43 am; edited 4 times in total
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HAL 

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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:31 am
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Yes I think there are.
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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:15 am
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David wrote:
Skids wrote:
Swedish Prime Minister: We'll 'Never Go Back' to Allowing Mass Refugee Immigration

The prime minister of Sweden now says his nation will "never go back" to allowing mass immigration from terrorist nations like Syria, Libya and Iran.The U-turn comes after a Muslim terrorist, who came to the country as a refugee and sought asylum, killed four people in a truck attack. Rakhmat Akilov, a refugee from Uzbekistan, hijacked a truck and deliberately drove into pedestrians on central Stockholm's main shopping street on Friday.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/15272/swedish-prime-minister-well-never-go-back-allowing-joseph-curl


What a load of junk. A mixture of real quotes (the one relevant one being a reference to a policy change from 18 months ago, reported here: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/24/sweden-asylum-seekers-refugees-policy-reversal) with misleading commentary. Some examples in bold:

Quote:
The prime minister of Sweden now says his nation will "never go back" to allowing mass immigration from terrorist nations like Syria, Libya and Iran.


Quote:
The U-turn comes after a Muslim terrorist, who came to the country as a refugee and sought asylum, killed four people in a truck attack.


As pointed out above, there has been no clear policy shift regarding refugees in the aftermath of this attack. So there has been no "u-turn". This is simply a false statement.

Quote:
Prime Minister Stefan Löfven vowed to move the country from its liberal stance


Again: since when? What does this even mean?

Quote:
He said refugees are bringing danger into Sweden. "Terrorists want us to be afraid, want us to change our behavior, want us to not live our lives normally, but that is what we're going to do. Terrorists can never defeat Sweden, never."


Blatant lie.

I don't mean to be a broken record on this, but semi-fake news sites like the Daily Wire are incredibly insidious and little more than fronts for con artists who make money off misleading gullible people.

There's plenty of decent news sources out there with left-wing, centrist and right-wing editorial views. Hell, even trash like The Herald Sun and The Daily Mail are a level above this, in that they actually have some editorial standards. Exercising some discretion in news sources would be appreciated.

I heard Australia is going to bar all Greeks and Tongans from entering the country after the Bourke Street incident. Can't have those types here - they're obviously all killers. Rolling Eyes
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Pi Gemini



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Location: SA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:31 am
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this might be a bit closer to what the Swedish PM actually said,

https://www.thelocal.se/20170409/stockholm-attack-emotional-lfven-praises-fellow-swedes

The reality is he has an entrenched government bureaucracy and a dominant political narrative that is unlikely to change too much, in the short term.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:53 am
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^^ I had not realized that Greeks and Tongan immigrants have a significant history of mass murder, sympathy for the murder of literary heretics, pan-national support for an Umma, and integration difficulties across the western world. If they do, then we may have to look beyond Greece and Tonga for the future of our utterly essential mass immigration project, I guess. There are lots of horribly poor people in India and Kenya who do not seem even slightly sympathetic to those who want to kill us en masse. Let's talk to them rather than the Greeks and Tongans.
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Pies4shaw Leo

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Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:28 am
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Whatever that means.

Of course, what the article suggests is a part of the political narrative that the right is embarrassed by - immigration controls (like many elements of the "intelligence" services) simply don't work.

Here's another guy whose application for residency seems to have been rejected - he then absconded and did this terrible thing while he was on the run. The people who are determined to do such awful things will continue to get around immigration restrictions (or, in any event, in many cases are already second-generation citizens of the relevant countries, so that "border controls" are quite irrelevant) and the people who will be caught and harmed by immigration restrictions will be ordinary people who tell the truth.
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:48 am
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Mugwump wrote:
^^ I had not realized that Greeks and Tongan immigrants have a significant history of mass murder, sympathy for the murder of literary heretics, pan-national support for an Umma, and integration difficulties across the western world. If they do, then we may have to look beyond Greece and Tonga for the future of our utterly essential mass immigration project, I guess. There are lots of horribly poor people in India and Kenya who do not seem even slightly sympathetic to those who want to kill us en masse. Let's talk to them rather than the Greeks and Tongans.


Uzbeks, on the other hand, have a long history of being troublemakers... Shocked

Seriously, all this shows is the folly of a country-of-origin based system of refugee exclusion as attempted by Trump. Where refugees are responsible for attacks like this (and they are hardly over-represented in this area), country of origin seems to have little to do with anything – which shows why Skids' fake news article is so absurd in its false suggestion that Sweden might respond to an attack by an Uzbekistani national by banning refugees from Syria or Iran.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:30 am
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I'd have thought that country of origin is the best proxy we have for religious affiliation, and therefore the only significant filter we have to avoid the creation of a very large group of people who will presumably seek to influence our social and foreign policies in line with the precepts of Islam. You cannot invite millions of people with a strongly held and powerful faith into your country and then expect them to abstain from pursuing the precepts of that faith politically. It is right that we offer the highest standards of protection under the law to Muslims now in the West, but push back hard on expansion of the numbers via immigration if we do not wish to see our country deformed by this assertive and demanding faith and the civil strife it increasingly brings.

In any event, my main point above was that one drugged-up mass murderer in Melbourne provides no useful analogy with the pattern of Islamic terror murders.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:09 pm
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^ Do you have any evidemce to suggest that a higher percentage of Muslims in a given country correlates with higher numbers of terrorist attacks? Or are you not actually talking about terrorism here? If the latter, that would be an unfortunate conflation.
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 7:46 pm
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David wrote:
^ Do you have any evidemce to suggest that a higher percentage of Muslims in a given country correlates with higher numbers of terrorist attacks? Or are you not actually talking about terrorism here? If the latter, that would be an unfortunate conflation.


^ Evidence that the number of Muslims in a country might correlate with the number of Islam-inspired attacks ? No, none at all. Why would there be any correlation between terrorism inspired by an ideology and the number of people in a community who profess that ideology? I'm honestly surprised that this demands any discussion at all, it is so obvious. Anyway, perhaps you could consider the actual proportions shown in this article and correlate it with places where significant attacks have taken place. I can do a Pearson's r-squared if it'll satisfy you, but it should not be necessary.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/datablog/2014/oct/30/australians-think-muslim-population-nine-times-greater

cf - just counting mass murders, not the killing of innocent individuals - London (twice), Paris (twice), Brussels, Mumbai, Nice, Berlin, Sweden, and countless incidents in the Middle East. Madrid is a bit of an outlier, which can be ascribed to its proximity to the major Muslim population centres (and to El Cid).

Australia has been largely spared major atrocities (pace Bali) because it has a small Muslim population, and it is far from Muslim population centres. Ditto South Korea, Japan, Poland etc. If you must be an apologist for this Bedouin religion which is so deeply opposed to the liberal views you hold so dear, then a better strategy than denying the obvious is required.

In response to the "unfortunate conflation", I am not sure what point you are making, but no, I am not talking specifically about terrorism. I am talking about a bloc of people who adhere to an assertive ideology (faith) which makes no distinction between the demands of religion and the state, and believes it is supreme truth. If you import that en masse, you risk civil strife, illiberal laws, and a changed identity for Australia. It may feel uncomfortable, but reality is often so.

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Skids Cancer

Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.


Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:57 pm
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Islam.... if it isn't obvious to anyone how destructive, divisive and discriminatory it is now. Well, it never will be... well not until you taste it for yourself.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:28 pm
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David wrote:
^ Do you have any evidemce to suggest that a higher percentage of Muslims in a given country correlates with higher numbers of terrorist attacks? Or are you not actually talking about terrorism here? If the latter, that would be an unfortunate conflation.


presenting evidence to one who's mind is fixed won't change their mind, it simply triggers cognitive dissonance.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:32 pm
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I hadn't thought of that.
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