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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Original.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ You have to admit, David, it's a little hard for that "peace" brand to stick given the extent to which Islamist violence is spreading and rippling out across the world, and given Islam is by far the major source of religiously-inspired indiscriminate violence. Doesn't it strike you as just a little ironic ?
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I've long thought the "Islam is a religion of peace" motto is dumb, but only in the sense that saying "Islam [or Christianity, or Buddhism] is a religion of ____" is dumb. Like Christianity, Islam promotes violence, and it promotes peace – both in its theory, its practice and its various interpretations. Religious books are like Rorschach tests in that sense.
But to really know whether, in sum total, Islam produces more violence than it produces peace, you'd have to balance out all the work it does in promoting social cohesion, forgiveness, non-violent solutions in everyday life and so on. Unfortunately, nobody has set up a tracker for that. People just see the accumulation of violent incidents (without any sense of proportionality) and conclude that it's another nail in the coffin for Islam's reputation. That's actually the sole purpose of all of these updates: to grind us into submission and accept its Crusader logic, even while presenting us absolutely nothing in the way of statistical evidence or contextual information. Just a list of atrocities.
Can you imagine an analogous list of "bad things done by black people"? Or, to make you and I feel a bit more uncomfortable, "bad things done by white men"? What message would those exercises send, and would they be constructive messages?
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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I don't think it's about the sum total of Islam's effect. It's about the fact that the slogan is dumb and evidently untrue, as Islam-inspired atrocities and intolerance mount right across the world.
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Religion of Pieces |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | I don't think it's about the sum total of Islam's effect. It's about the fact that the slogan is dumb and evidently untrue, as Islam-inspired atrocities and intolerance mount right across the world. |
But it's only as untrue as the reverse is. And that's what I think people really don't get. Through this kind of reportage, a picture is constructed of Islam as an entire faith (and one that many people would happily colour in for us). I think those who understand basic history and sociology can see those facile analyses for what they are, but a great number of people quite clearly don't, and unfortunately the anti-Islamic crowd are winning the argument right now through sheer attrition.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | I don't think it's about the sum total of Islam's effect. It's about the fact that the slogan is dumb and evidently untrue, as Islam-inspired atrocities and intolerance mount right across the world. |
But it's only as untrue as the reverse is. And that's what I think people really don't get. Through this kind of reportage, a picture is constructed of Islam as an entire faith (and one that many people would happily colour in for us). I think those who understand basic history and sociology can see those facile analyses for what they are, but a great number of people quite clearly don't, and unfortunately the anti-Islamic crowd are winning the argument right now through sheer attrition. |
So you think Islam is broadly a force for good in the world ? I am not a great fan of religion in general, though as long as it is a private practice or a bit of social brocade I don't care. I just take an especially jaundiced view of a religion that is so widely used as a pretext for slaughter, torture, bigotry, sexual slavery, intolerance, misogyny, censorship and mindless violence by so many (but not all) of its followers.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Who coined the term? Was it someone trying to promote the better parts of it, or someone trying to con?
I do like the way you put it mugwump, "used as a pretext", it really is just people using religion as an excuse to do bad things and gain power.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| think positive wrote: | Who coined the term? Was it someone trying to promote the better parts of it, or someone trying to con?
I do like the way you put it mugwump, "used as a pretext", it really is just people using religion as an excuse to do bad things and gain power. |
I agree, TP. It is just a hijack, yet it is spreading so widely, now. I am just jaded and sick after going to work the past two days amid news of slaughter on the streets of Istanbul and then Jakarta. From Paris, to Baghdad, to Karbala, to Nairobi, to Nigeria, Mumbai, New York, London, Kabul, Madrid, Luxor, Tunis , Islamabad, and on, and on, and on. There is something deeply wrong in this religion, and i don't know how much killing and maiming is required before this will be accepted by the denialists.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Unfortunately very true
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | Who coined the term? Was it someone trying to promote the better parts of it, or someone trying to con?
I do like the way you put it mugwump, "used as a pretext", it really is just people using religion as an excuse to do bad things and gain power. |
I think it's most famously attributed to George W. Bush after the 9/11 attacks, though it may have been in common use beforehand.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_of_Peace
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Last edited by David on Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | I don't think it's about the sum total of Islam's effect. It's about the fact that the slogan is dumb and evidently untrue, as Islam-inspired atrocities and intolerance mount right across the world. |
But it's only as untrue as the reverse is. And that's what I think people really don't get. Through this kind of reportage, a picture is constructed of Islam as an entire faith (and one that many people would happily colour in for us). I think those who understand basic history and sociology can see those facile analyses for what they are, but a great number of people quite clearly don't, and unfortunately the anti-Islamic crowd are winning the argument right now through sheer attrition. |
One cause is certainly media gazing being confused with serious knowledge. Having pursued a different tactic this week of studying the German thing closely just to see what people are absorbing and how that sort of knowledge process works, it's a circular reinforcement machine of emotion which does nothing to improve any serious category of knowledge. Basically, it's a distracting time waster that returns very little for the effort you give it.
Let's be honest; no one gave a rat's arse about Indonesia last week.
Just like no one, say, gives a rat's arse about the Philippines until something occasional associated with a Muslim is reported there. Yet, air lift every single Muslim from the Philippines and the country is a Muslim-free train wreck. But if you don't know it's already a train wreck, and why, your new bit of knowledge is just a distraction, fooling you into thinking you now know something important about the Philippines, when you don't.
People obviously need to stop rubber-necking with the media car crashes.
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_To-cV94Bo |
Good stuff. Jihad is the system of war invented by Mohammad way back at the start with the purpose to spread Islam by force and loot to get money because they produced nothing themselves. Conquest, rape, killing and slavery, that's the foundation of Islam.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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During the Iraq debates, many of us argued that money would be best spent buttressing the economies and social stability of more promising countries, ensuring economic development remained the long-term regional organising principle and goal.
Alas, $3T in development-destroying expenditures and one global financial crisis later, not to be.
Can't upset corporate-friendly allies like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey and Qatar to get some serious regional development work done, even if they do love their development-crushing terrorist militia when convenient.
| DW - Opinion Piece wrote: | Opinion: The Turkish nightmare
These days, nightmares are becoming reality in Turkey. Terror has reached the megacity of Istanbul and it is not surprising. Fears have obviously been growing in Germany, since the victims of the latest terrorist attacks may all have been German vacationers. Now, many in Germany will notice that they, too, are affected by what happens "when off in Turkey, people up in arms are battling" as Goethe wrote in Faust.
Parallel conflicts in Turkey
This is exactly what is happening - and with a growing impact. In the past seven months in Turkey, there have been three massive terrorist attacks with a death toll of over 150. The victims were sympathizers of left-wing politics and Kurds. The perpetrators were supporters of the terrorist organization that calls itself "Islamic State."
At the same time, an unofficial civil war has been raging between security forces and the outlawed Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK); it has cost the lives of hundreds of people. The government in Ankara insists that only PKK terrorists have been killed, but many in the Kurdish regions speak of civilian deaths.
Turkey is waging a war against terrorists. Until now, it has focused on the war against the Kurdish PKK. The worst attacks on civilians have, however, been carried out by the 'IS' terrorist group.
Now, German vacationers have been hit and people in Germany are horrified. Why Germans? It is probably a coincidence that follows the laws of probability: More than five million Germans make up the largest contingent of visitors to Turkey, and tourism, as one of the pillars of the Turkish economy, has been intentionally targeted.
Paying the price for leniency towards IS
The perpetrators are, once again, pro-IS, according to Turkish government sources. For years, the Turkish state has tolerated Islamist militants, allowed them a free hand and even indirectly supported them, as reported by Turkey's critical media outlets in recent years. Ankara has always rejected such accusations; Turkish leaders need not fear criticism within the country as they have largely eliminated critical journalism. That is also part of the Turkish nightmare at the moment.
Now, Ankara's allies must take the initiative: They must urge Turkey to take decisive action to combat terrorism. They must compel Turkey to resolve its domestic Kurdish PKK conflict with words and not arms. If both measures are implemented with resolve, then there is hope that terrorism of any kind will effectively be combatted and that Turkey will avert a descent into civil war. |
http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-the-turkish-nightmare/a-18976789
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