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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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ROME -- The State Department is warning that St. Peter's Basilica in Rome, Milan's cathedral and La Scala opera house, as well as "general venues" like churches, synagogues, restaurants, theaters and hotels have been identified as "potential targets" in those two cities for terrorist attacks.
The U.S. Embassy in Rome sent out early Thursday a "security message for U.S. citizens," saying that "terrorist groups may possibly utilize similar methods used in the recent Paris attacks."
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-fbi-italy-rome-terror-threat-st-peters-basilica-tourist-attractions/
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | | The top 7 of those have large historical Muslim populations, which is probably pushing that overall percentage up a little. You have to start from France and work down if you want to look at 20th/21st century arrival figures. |
Indeed, it is Northern Europe - the powerhouse of European industry, technology, theory and innovation - that matters. What happens in Albania is seriously relevant only insofar as the EU's open borders policy makes Albanian Muslim migration to Northern Europe possible. |
Heaven forbid! 
I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but, regardless, here's something I was just reading about Albania the other day:
http://unitedwithisrael.org/albanian-muslims-rescued-jewish-lives-from-nazis/
| Quote: | | Indeed, the Albanian Muslims have an honor code known as besa, meaning to keep the promise, which mandates hospitality and protection of guests as if they are members of ones own family. Because of this Albanian honor code, many of the Albanians who saved Jewish lives during the Holocaust often dont feel that what they did was particularly extraordinary, for they assert that any one in their culture would do the same. Yet, the reality is that other peoples in Europe did not live by the besa code, thus preventing what happened in Albania from happening elsewhere. The Albanian Muslims truly live by the Quranic principle, which is also cited in the Talmud, If one saved a life, it would be as if he saved all humanity. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | | The top 7 of those have large historical Muslim populations, which is probably pushing that overall percentage up a little. You have to start from France and work down if you want to look at 20th/21st century arrival figures. |
Indeed, it is Northern Europe - the powerhouse of European industry, technology, theory and innovation - that matters. What happens in Albania is seriously relevant only insofar as the EU's open borders policy makes Albanian Muslim migration to Northern Europe possible. |
Heaven forbid!
I know you probably didn't mean it that way, but, regardless, here's something I was just reading about Albania the other day:
http://unitedwithisrael.org/albanian-muslims-rescued-jewish-lives-from-nazis/
| Quote: | | Indeed, the Albanian Muslims have an honor code known as besa, meaning to keep the promise, which mandates hospitality and protection of guests as if they are members of ones own family. Because of this Albanian honor code, many of the Albanians who saved Jewish lives during the Holocaust often dont feel that what they did was particularly extraordinary, for they assert that any one in their culture would do the same. Yet, the reality is that other peoples in Europe did not live by the besa code, thus preventing what happened in Albania from happening elsewhere. The Albanian Muslims truly live by the Quranic principle, which is also cited in the Talmud, If one saved a life, it would be as if he saved all humanity. |
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(was reading that the other day on a different site).
Need to start your own thread: Good things done by Muslims.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Sat Nov 21, 2015 4:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I don't have to do whatever you say. I have my own free will. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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The Islamisation of Northern Europe is the issue, David. There is a tipping point in terms of the influence of Islam, its pervasive sense of grievance , its relative unity, passion and its imperialist claims. On the basis of nothing more than gut feel, i suspect it is in the range of 15-20%. At that point, islam will exert a poweful influence on our laws. And you'd hate it !
Whether a group of Mulsims have done good things in the past is really terribly irrelevant.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oh a web page. |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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And yet this is a regime that the US and Australia still gives almost unconditional political support to. Any other country with such an appalling human rights record would be receiving economic sanctions from us right now.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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^Not just the USA and us - maybe the world and the waste of time and money UN could step up??
Nah no nope of that given Saudi Arabia has a seat on the Human Rights Council, the United Nations' top rights body 
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | And yet this is a regime that the US and Australia still gives almost unconditional political support to. Any other country with such an appalling human rights record would be receiving economic sanctions from us right now. |
It's a really fair point, but not as simple as it may seem. The Al-Sauds are a pernicious influence. But they are a source of stability, and i'd be wary of allowing Saudi Arabia to slide into anarchy as well. They are also US allies, and even if your allies are stinkers, trust matters. This is not a game where you get to support a set of liberal nice guys against Nazis. This is one of the most strategically-sensitive parts of the world, and regrettably, it hosts the lifeblood of our economies. As always in diplomacy, it is better to have good relations with someone bad that does not actually want to kill you, especially in a region where so many people do, and to back good relations with meaningful support. If we reach the point where the Saudis are actually knowingly and directly funding terrorism - and that is quite possible - then of course we should cut them loose.
None of that says it is not a disgusting regime. It is, and i hope it can be changed by engagement. In the end, it'll probably be engulfed by the forces it has played a large part in setting in motion, but for the moment, i'd put pressure on them but not fall out of alliance. When and if they do fall, our past support will no doubt be cited by some vicious sect or other as a good reason to kill us, and our own Left will consider the long-standing support for the Saudis a kind of justification for that attitude. Funny business, international affairs.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Skids
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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2015.11.22 Israel Etzion 1 dead - A young Israeli woman is brutally stabbed to death by Palestinians.
2015.11.22 Nigeria Maiduguri 8 dead 7 wounded
A female suicide bomber exterminates eight people at a displaced persons camp.
Did somebody say muslims?
_________________
Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | David wrote: | | And yet this is a regime that the US and Australia still gives almost unconditional political support to. Any other country with such an appalling human rights record would be receiving economic sanctions from us right now. |
It's a really fair point, but not as simple as it may seem. The Al-Sauds are a pernicious influence. But they are a source of stability, and i'd be wary of allowing Saudi Arabia to slide into anarchy as well. They are also US allies, and even if your allies are stinkers, trust matters. This is not a game where you get to support a set of liberal nice guys against Nazis. This is one of the most strategically-sensitive parts of the world, and regrettably, it hosts the lifeblood of our economies. As always in diplomacy, it is better to have good relations with someone bad that does not actually want to kill you, especially in a region where so many people do, and to back good relations with meaningful support. If we reach the point where the Saudis are actually knowingly and directly funding terrorism - and that is quite possible - then of course we should cut them loose.
None of that says it is not a disgusting regime. It is, and i hope it can be changed by engagement. In the end, it'll probably be engulfed by the forces it has played a large part in setting in motion, but for the moment, i'd put pressure on them but not fall out of alliance. When and if they do fall, our past support will no doubt be cited by some vicious sect or other as a good reason to kill us, and our own Left will consider the long-standing support for the Saudis a kind of justification for that attitude. Funny business, international affairs. |
You're just guessing, though; these are preferable extremists because, well, they're not Syria or Iraq.
This is the catch-up football everyone is playing here. Is richer, must be better. Is not in chaos, must be better. Wears cleaner white robes, must be better. Has been for longer, must be better. But those are just abstract heuristics that don't tell us anything specific at all about what is an enormous dynamic system. This storyline approach basically ends up backing the status quo because it *feels* righter, rather than providing solutions based on real insight.
We certainly know that any serious insight will have to be based on the major forces within overall dynamic system, ipso facto. Saudi Arabia is actually a powerful beneficiary of the present dysfunctional oil economy and regional order, and thus in science and economics would be seen as incentivised to maintain that advantage. To postulate on the basis of their *relative* success that they *must not* be the crux of the problem is a very odd guess to start with indeed.
Approaching that sort of black box from the perspective of whatever we have heard said most, and therefore what feels most right, is the stuff of Afghanistan and Iraq.
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